What did the canaanites do actuall?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I think it is a valid parallel.

Hinds said 'God is the maker of mankind and has the moral right to destroy His own handiwork.'

Does the creator of life (be it a mother, or God himself) have the 'moral right' to destroy their creation? Or moreover, would an all loving, all forgiving God really choose to do so?

I truly believe that if God does exist he would not be pleased that people would think him capable of doing so.

You err in your understanding. A mother is not a creator of life. A mother and father do not create life, but only reproduce after their own kind as allowed by God. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
You err in your understanding. A mother is not a creator of life. A mother and father do not create life, but only reproduce after their own kind as allowed by God. 😏

That is only true if you believe in God.

I do not.

Originally posted by Suzianne
You must wonder why people think you're not a Christian.

I mean, at least sometimes you must wonder this.

I read foolishness like this, and I have to wonder also. But what I'm wondering is why you call yourself a Christian. Christians are commanded by Christ to love God. Clearly, you don't.

"You must wonder why people think you're not a Christian."
nope. i know this is a foreign concept to you but my faith doesn't need validation from other people. my faith is my own.

"I mean, at least sometimes you must wonder this."
nope, never. i don't care.

"But what I'm wondering is why you call yourself a Christian."
i believe in jesus. i follow jesus's teachings. teachings that include but not limited to "don't murder children". and if one day jesus came down and asked all to start murdering children, i wouldn't follow him any more.

"Christians are commanded by Christ to love God. Clearly, you don't."
clearly, i don't love your god. your god murdered the whole world because he was to lazy to guide it. your god murdered a whole nation because his favourites needed a place to crash. your god allowed his most faithful servant to be tortured. your god killed 40 children with bears(!) because they called a bald old man bald.

your god is vindictive, genocidal, infanticidal, jealous, unpredictable, petty, and much more. if he were real, i wouldn't love him.

my god sent his only son to stop murders. to spread love, compassion, charity. peace
my god cringes at what you people claim he did.
my god cringes when people kill in his name (no matter if they are muslims, christians, buddhists or scientologists).

your god and my god are mutually exclusive. they cannot both be real. and faced with a choice between a murdering maniac and a kind hippie, i choose the hippie.

Originally posted by Suzianne
You must wonder why people think you're not a Christian.

I mean, at least sometimes you must wonder this.

I read foolishness like this, and I have to wonder also. But what I'm wondering is why you call yourself a Christian. Christians are commanded by Christ to love God. Clearly, you don't.

so now that i addressed your post, care to take up the challenge i presented rjhinds?

is there a command from god that you would disobey? is there a line you wouldn't cross in the name of god?

Originally posted by RJHinds
I would attempt to obey God as my ability allowed. 😏

so state it clearly.

if god commanded you to kill children, you would?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I appreciate your considered reply.

I think your statement 'Genocide is abhorrent on a human level' really is the key note, for me. As an atheist (and someone who views the bible as no more than an interesting collection of stories) i believe there is 'only' a human level, which necessarily means that i will always view genocide as abhorrent, irre ...[text shortened]... only ever be seen by me on a 'human level.' They are all abhorrent. They are all unjustifiable.

Yes, but you must admit/agree that IF the God of the Bible is true, therefore meaning there is NOT only a human level but rather a divine level too, then that changes the discussion altogether.

Admitting this is not giving anything to Theists or Christians.

My point is this-we aren't really able to discuss this on the same level. I'll agree with you that genocide is abhorrent on a human level, but the 'genocide' (note quotations marks) of the Canaanites is not if you properly view and read the Bible.

Now, if you are interested in discussing why I hold such a stance, I'd be more than happy to do that. I've already hinted at a lot of it.

I actually wrestled with this issue for several years. The Canaanite 'issue' is indeed difficult. Not all things about Christianity are easy to stomach or swallow. Two books that really opened my eyes were the ones I mentioned earlier. Also, a professor of mine, Dr. Brian Aucker helped me through it as well. He is an Oxford graduate (PhD) and himself wrote his dissertation on a section of the book of Joshua.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
genocides become less horrible if they are committed by God?

I think you misunderstand. That must be it.

It isn't genocide as you and I think of genocide if commanded by God. I'm stating this simply.
You don't have to agree with the Bible, but, as I've said multiple times, IF the Bible is true and an accurate portrayal of history from Genesis 1 on and an accurate portrayal of God's character then we all will have a difficult time imputing God's character. The Bible does not allow us to define God for ourselves. Surely you would agree that [b]IF[b] there is an all powerful deity who created the universe and you that frankly, he probably doesn't work by our 'established' rules, norms, etc.

So you and I have a different starting place. You want to speak on purely human terms. I simply cannot do this. I want to speak with God in the equation. You simply cannot do this. This is where the difficulty lies.

Originally posted by AppleChess
Yes, but you must admit/agree that [b]IF the God of the Bible is true, therefore meaning there is NOT only a human level but rather a divine level too, then that changes the discussion altogether.

Admitting this is not giving anything to Theists or Christians.

My point is this-we aren't really able to discuss this on the same level. I'l ...[text shortened]... ord graduate (PhD) and himself wrote his dissertation on a section of the book of Joshua.[/b]

Yes agreed, i already admitted so when i said, 'I readily accept that people who believe there is a 'higher level' may wish to explore the issue...'

Perhaps this is as far as an atheist and Christian can go when discussing the Canaanite 'genocide,' (Quotation marks for your benefit only) as the first can see no further than the 'human level.' Without a belief in a 'higher level' then trying to understand the motivating reasons for divine action is a mute point,...or what we in academia circles call, a Straw God argument.

Originally posted by AppleChess
I think you misunderstand. That must be it.

It isn't genocide as you and I think of genocide if commanded by God. I'm stating this simply.
You don't have to agree with the Bible, but, as I've said multiple times, [b]IF the Bible is true and an accurate portrayal of history from Genesis 1 on and an accurate portrayal of God's character then we al ...[text shortened]... to speak with God in the equation. You simply cannot do this. This is where the difficulty lies.[/b]

genocide is the systematic and deliberate destruction of a group of people.

so what god did in the case of the flood and later when he commanded the canaanites be destroyed is DEFINiTELY genocide. that's not in question, that is what the freakin word means.

what i asked was "is genocide less horrible and if it is done by god?

Originally posted by AppleChess
I think you misunderstand. That must be it.

It isn't genocide as you and I think of genocide if commanded by God. I'm stating this simply.
You don't have to agree with the Bible, but, as I've said multiple times, [b]IF the Bible is true and an accurate portrayal of history from Genesis 1 on and an accurate portrayal of God's character then we al ...[text shortened]... to speak with God in the equation. You simply cannot do this. This is where the difficulty lies.[/b]

the bible states we have eaten from the tree of knowledge
we know good and evil.
we may emit opinions on good and evil.

therefore we CAN in fact emit judgement on an act if it is evil or not.
we can point out when god doesn't follow his own rules.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
genocide is the systematic and deliberate destruction of a group of people.

so what god did in the case of the flood and later when he commanded the canaanites be destroyed is DEFINiTELY genocide. that's not in question, that is what the freakin word means.

what i asked was "is genocide less horrible and if it is done by god?

I disagree. If that was all it was (an amoral concept that merely was descriptive but did not contain any prescriptive nature) then you wouldn't be asking this, 'is genocide less horrible if it is done by god.' You are assuming by asking the question a moral standard. Which, I agree there is. Yet, you just tried in your post to define it functionally only.

You see. I'm arguing that the term genocide is inherently a moral evaluation and not merely a description. Hence, to call the intentional mass destruction of a people group genocide is just as much a moral prescription as a factual description.

Example-if I say someone murdered someone verses saying someone killed someone I might be forgiven for using English poorly and ambiguously. But, they do actually mean two different things. If I say 'murder' I'm obviously implying guilt and culpability. If I say 'kill' we are not implying these things. Yet, they both describe functionally the same thing. Someone died.

Genocide is as morally a laden term as murder.

So in essence, you are asking this, 'is murder less horrible if it is done by god?'

I contend that you are starting off asking the wrong question altogether.

btw, this isn't my argument. This is just simple logic and it is an argument that Paul Copan explores. It is rather well-known in the realm of ethics and Dan Doriani, a PhD in ethics, develops this in his own lecture series, 'Is God morally responsible?'

The answer he arrives at is, 'Yes!' But not to us, only to himself. But this is of course assuming you take the God to be the God of the Bible.

so what god did in the case of the flood and later when he commanded the canaanites be destroyed is DEFINiTELY genocide. that's not in question, that is what the freakin word means.

No, it's not that simple. I'm sure you wish it was. Words have more than just functional meaning when we are discussing a moral precept. They have moral meaning too. I'm sure it is very difficult for you to imagine a God who is transcendent above your notion of morality because after reading some of your own posts I see you prefer to define God for yourself. But, the God of the Bible is not defined by us. He is who he is. But he is good. And that is the rub. Understanding God's character first and foremost as good greatly impacts my view foundationally of the killing of the Canaanites.

Looking forward to your response. Really, I am. You are getting very much into studies that I have pursued and love.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
That is only true if you believe in God.

I do not.

Truth does not change because you do not believe it.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
so state it clearly.

if god commanded you to kill children, you would?

I would first question that this god is actually the antichrist or Satan, since I know Christ loves all the little children of the world. However, if I became convinced that the real God of the Holy Bible wanted me to kill some little children, I would believe He must have a good reason for it and would obey Him.

I remember from Genesis that Abram was commanded to sacrifice his own son and because he obeyed God, his name was changed to Abraham and his faith was counted to him as righteousness.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I would first question that this god is actually the antichrist or Satan, since I know Christ loves all the little children of the world. However, if I became convinced that the real God of the Holy Bible wanted me to kill some little children, I would believe He must have a good reason for it and would obey Him.

I remember from Genesis that Abram was co ...[text shortened]... e obeyed God, his name was changed to Abraham and his faith was counted to him as righteousness.

“Oh," the girl said, shaking her head. "Don't be so simple. People adore monsters. They fill their songs and stories with them. They define themselves in relation to them. You know what a monster is, young shade? Power. Power and choice. Monsters make choices. Monsters shape the world. Monsters force us to become stronger, smarter, better. They sift the weak from the strong and provide a forge for the steeling of souls. Even as we curse monsters, we admire them. Seek to become them, in some ways." Her eyes became distant. "There are far, far worse things to be than a monster.”

Jim Butcher, Ghost Story

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
“Oh," the girl said, shaking her head. "Don't be so simple. People adore monsters. They fill their songs and stories with them. They define themselves in relation to them. You know what a monster is, young shade? Power. Power and choice. Monsters make choices. Monsters shape the world. Monsters force us to become stronger, smarter, better. They sift ...[text shortened]... me distant. "There are far, far worse things to be than a monster.”

Jim Butcher, Ghost Story

You must enjoy just being a troll.