17 Aug 12
2 edits
Originally posted by vistesdHi Vistesd, nice to see your posts again; what you wrote was interesting but i'm only going to respond to a portion of it (the rest I have little value or contention to add)...
Hi Agerg. Atheist here, but—
I think a standard theological position is that God (I do get the intent of your clarifying “G”, by the way) is the necessary being—or the necessary and sufficient condition for the existence of contingent beings, the contingent universe. The existence of G is necessary for (or as an explanation for) contingent ...[text shortened]... illich was too close to pantheism, or a Stoic identification of theos with phusis.
I think a standard theological position is that God (I do get the intent of your clarifying “G”, by the way) is the necessary being—or the necessary and sufficient condition for the existence of contingent beings, the contingent universe. The existence of G is necessary for (or as an explanation for) contingent existence. G’s existence itself requires no further necessary or sufficient conditions: G just is. If this were not so, then G would just be another contingent being (a “g” if you wish).
Hmm, I'm glad you see my intent but just to be sure: I write "G"od not just for clarification that I refer to a particular god, but also to refer to the "God" that a theist reader him/herself believes exists
often of the Abrahamic family of gods
(and little 'g' gods are any deistic entity so far defined or otherwise). Anyway, with that out of the way however, I can understand why a theist would need to make that declaration (by fiat). Indeed if the theist account is true and there does exist some "G"od that created everything there is (and perhaps everything there ever will be) then it does not make much sense to ask what its purpose is. On the other hand (and this is what I wanted to lead the theists towards - as twhitehead observed earlier), if the theist account is believed false on our parts - that is there doesn't exist some "G"od that ~ ... ~ then it doesn't make much sense to ask what is the purpose of life - it too just is!
All that said, yourself and wolfgang (up to your post) have made the arguments I would consider to be feasible though I'm disappointed that the theists didn't play along (or put up a good fight!)
17 Aug 12
Originally posted by AgergI am still not clear as to what you wish to fight about.
Hi Vistesd, nice to see your posts again; what you wrote was interesting but i'm only going to respond to a portion of it (the rest I have little value or contention to add)...
[b]I think a standard theological position is that God (I do get the intent of your clarifying “G”, by the way) is the necessary being—or the necessary and sufficient condition for t ...[text shortened]... gh I'm disappointed that the theists didn't play along (or put up a good fight!)
18 Aug 12
Originally posted by stellspalfieWith the advent of quantum physics we are forced to admit we dont know all there is to physics, so in that sense it is outside our ken .
[b]Firstly the "space" in which "God" "dwells" is totally unknown to any regular human thinking and dont let any Christians tell you any different (not that you would 🙂 )
why is unknown? does it exist outside of physics? do we know anymore information about what is in this space and what we do there once we have lost our physical bodies?
...[text shortened]... tself separate from humanity, we doenst it explain to us what it wants us to do and why?[/b]
I have no idea what we do there without physical bodies other than keep learning.
God doesn't want us to be like him/it because he/it doesn't exist. It's just an idea to help us focus as fallable beings, amongst other things.
We need to transcend our physical and temporal limitations.
When our collective intelligence is ready then humanity will be ready for the next step in our evolution.
For me I can understand this idea on many different levels and need no further instructions .
18 Aug 12
Originally posted by karoly aczeltranshumanism?
With the advent of quantum physics we are forced to admit we dont know all there is to physics, so in that sense it is outside our ken .
I have no idea what we do there without physical bodies other than keep learning.
God doesn't want us to be like him/it because he/it doesn't exist. It's just an idea to help us focus as fallable beings, amongst ot ...[text shortened]... For me I can understand this idea on many different levels and need no further instructions .
19 Aug 12
Originally posted by AgergThe O.P. puzzles me, a theist, who BELIEVES that God exists. I do not KNOW anything about God. I only know that there are theories and theories, even among the theists, about the existence of God and the space he/she/it occupies. Right from the Vedas and Upanishads, which say that God occupies all the Space known to exist and also beyond the known Space. ( Rigveda-- the Purusha Sukta ). Obviously these are the statements of a humanity unable to come to grips with something beyond human intelligence and yet trying to describe something felt, something that sort of whizzes across the consciousness as does a daydream, a vague restless feeling that prompts the theist that indeed, there is something beyond the grasp of human intelligence. The puzzle is why an avowed atheist should try to ask these things ?
Why does "God", and the space in which it supposedly dwells exist? what is the ultimate purpose of this "God" entity?
Question open to [b]all theists (and of course non-theists if they wish)[/b]
19 Aug 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoI can agree with this.
The O.P. puzzles me, a theist, who BELIEVES that God exists. I do not KNOW anything about God. I only know that there are theories and theories, even among the theists, about the existence of God and the space he/she/it occupies. Right from the Vedas and Upanishads, which say that God occupies all the Space known to exist and also beyond the known Space. ...[text shortened]... rasp of human intelligence. The puzzle is why an avowed atheist should try to ask these things ?
Agerg, we cannot "know" God, or the mind of God. True, there is His word to guide us, the Bible, but it is remarkably quiet on the the whole "why" thing, and especially the "whence came God?" question.
The Bible is basically God's guide to His creation (Man). We simply don't have a "need to know" about where He came from, what He did before He decided to create us, or even what He had for breakfast last Tuesday. I'm pretty sure it amuses Him to listen to our speculations. It would amuse me if I were Him.
19 Aug 12
1 edit
Originally posted by stellspalfieGod abhors sin, this is why He keeps Himself separate from us.
why does this god keep itself separate from humanity, why doesn't it explain to us what it wants us to do and why?
He does explain what He wants us to do. It's called the Holy Bible.
Granted, it is a little short on the why, but the main reason is to provide a way back to Him.
19 Aug 12
3 edits
Originally posted by Suziannervsakhadeo :
I can agree with this.
Agerg, we cannot "know" God, or the mind of God. True, there is His word to guide us, the Bible, but it is remarkably quiet on the the whole "why" thing, and especially the "whence came God?" question.
The Bible is basically God's guide to His creation (Man). We simply don't have a "need to know" about where He came from, what y sure it amuses Him to listen to our speculations. It would amuse me if I were Him.
The O.P. puzzles me, a theist, who BELIEVES that God exists. I do not KNOW anything about God. I only know that there are theories and theories, even among the theists, about the existence of God and the space he/she/it occupies. Right from the Vedas and Upanishads, which say that God occupies all the Space known to exist and also beyond the known Space. ( Rigveda-- the Purusha Sukta ). Obviously these are the statements of a humanity unable to come to grips with something beyond human intelligence and yet trying to describe something felt, something that sort of whizzes across the consciousness as does a daydream, a vague restless feeling that prompts the theist that indeed, there is something beyond the grasp of human intelligence. The puzzle is why an avowed atheist should try to ask these things ?
Suzianne:
I can agree with this.
Agerg, we cannot "know" God, or the mind of God. True, there is His word to guide us, the Bible, but it is remarkably quiet on the the whole "why" thing, and especially the "whence came God?" question.
The Bible is basically God's guide to His creation (Man). We simply don't have a "need to know" about where He came from, what He did before He decided to create us, or even what He had for breakfast last Tuesday. I'm pretty sure it amuses Him to listen to our speculations. It would amuse me if I were Him.
Well the punchline to my OP is that, for you, I'd expect the question of "Why "G"od exists" is meaningless (i.e. "G"od needs no purpose) or impossible to answer - yet despite this the value you attach to "G"od is not cheapened. The same is true however for us atheists when asked "what is the meaning of life?" The question is meaningless to us but it does nothing to cheapen our appraisal of the lives we have.
Yes the OP is my attempt at countering/answering the question raised all to frequently by theists as though it's a royal flush (in bold above). I.e. that some things just don't have a purpose - "life" being one of such things.
19 Aug 12
Thanks for the support ! All the religions and philosophies ever written or talked about have been unable to pin down God to a definition or to compress him/her/it into a description. Many religions such as Hinduism frankly admit the inability of the sages and seers to describe God and the attributes of God. Yet, the philosophies of all religion fervently declare the existence of God and in an anthropomorphic fashion describe God's attributes. They are at best, good honest attempts. There are some things not amenable to Reason and Logic let alone linguistics. We humans, who barely eke out our lives for a second or two on this stage of the world and are gone in a flash and on the cosmic scale are nothing more than microorganisms crawling around on a piece of rock--how we can grasp God ?
19 Aug 12
Originally posted by AgergFor the theist (okay, for this theist, at least) the better articulation of this query would be the two-part:
Why does "God", and the space in which it supposedly dwells exist? what is the ultimate purpose of this "God" entity?
Question open to [b]all theists (and of course non-theists if they wish)[/b]
"What is reality? And why does it exist?"
To this, the theist would respond:
'God is reality; He is His own purpose.'
20 Aug 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoNothing exists by virtue of own-being, nor is there any non-being here. Being and non-being, born through causes and conditions, are empty of inherent existence. So the entire multiplicity is conceived solely in reliance upon worldly convention.
The O.P. puzzles me, a theist, who BELIEVES that God exists. I do not KNOW anything about God. I only know that there are theories and theories, even among the theists, about the existence of God and the space he/she/it occupies. Right from the Vedas and Upanishads, which say that God occupies all the Space known to exist and also beyond the known Space. ...[text shortened]... rasp of human intelligence. The puzzle is why an avowed atheist should try to ask these things ?
The thing that arises in dependence upon this or that does not arise when that is absent. When being and non-being, composite and non-composite are at peace, this is nirvana. In there, designations are without significance; all expressible things are empty of own-being. G is not expressible; and Mind is born of conditions, so any form it grasps is merely its own self-being
😵
20 Aug 12
Originally posted by SuzianneThe Spelling Gestapo is here.
I just wanna know what is this "emporer"?
The word is emperor.
More to the topic in the OP, there is only one God. Why are there any other "g"ods?
I like screwing with the Spelling Gestapo. I'm a good speller most of the time; better than most Gestapos.
28 Aug 12
Originally posted by SuzianneFortunately for mankind great men of the past did have a "need to know"; were curious and asked questions. Your attitude of blind acceptancce would have us all stil painting the walls of caves.
I can agree with this.
We simply don't have a "need to know" about where He came from, what He did before He decided to create us, or ...
07 Sep 12
Originally posted by AgergThe heavens ("universe"😉 declares the GLORY of GOD.
Ok, but then why "G"od? what is so special about this entity that the extended universe (housing "G"od) required it to exist (as opposed to some other deity) before there were even emporers or warlords to acknowlege, or be fearful of anything (respectively)?
God's space is bigger than yours, heck, it's bigger than mine too 😉
I do not think our minds can even imagine the size of God's space.