What was Paul's "thorn in the flesh"?

Originally posted by frogstomp
So Christ was illogical , too? Just how far do you plan to take this? Raising Paul to God status?
Christ's words are the ROCK

Matt
16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked
his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: so ...[text shortened]... save for using His name to further Paul's agenda.

robbing Peter to pay Paul?

I in no way claim Christ illogical, nor raise Paul to God status. Christ's words are truth not the rock. The rock is Christ Himself. He is the one upon whom the church is built (the chief cornerstone).
You have not answered my question, do you believe the church was built upon Peter?
I am not calling Jesus incompetent either. He is actively running His church.
When I say church, I do not mean a building, but the "body" of Christ, of which He is the head. I know that not everyone who claims to be a christian is really a christian.There are true Christians found in many Christian denominations. Jesus said you will know them by their fruit.

Furthermore the disciples were spreading the gospel.
I think the confusion here is a misunderstanding of "administrations".
Some call it "dispensation"...but nevertheless, this debate is getting off topic. It is about Paul's thorn. But you have reminded me of other things in the scriptures that need to be addressed...and for that I thank you...
🙂

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Being a homosexual is NOT a sin. Performing homosexual acts is a sin. A homosexual can be a devout and faithfull Christian who gives up his life for Christ. He can be a model for all Christians. If he obeys the Lord and refrains from (homo-)sexual activities then this is no problem at all .

If Paul turned out to be a homosexual man then this will not alte ...[text shortened]... rly contradicts this assumption/speculation of him being a homosexual man ..... on the contrary.

Your presumtion or speculation has nowhere to hang it's hat, so to speak. The reference is never made in scripture anywhere...however, right in the verse, it is a "messenger of Satan"...since a physical thorn(a thorn from a bush,etc.) would not apply as a messenger of Satan, I will take the Word of God at face falue. And since in previous usage it is used of as people, then it seems to fit in the verse, and in the context.
Why people?...Just look at the people that were out to harm Paul...

2 Cor 11:25-28
25 Three times I was beaten with rods; once I was stoned; three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 in journeys often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils of my own countrymen, in perils of the Gentiles, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 in weariness and toil, in sleeplessness often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness--
28 besides the other things, what comes upon me daily: my deep concern for all the churches.
(NKJ)

Acts 14:19
19 Then Jews from Antioch and Iconium came there; and having persuaded the multitudes, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead.
(NKJ)

2 Tim 1:15
15 This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me, among whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.
(NKJ)

2 Tim 4:16-17
16 At my first defense no one stood with me, but all forsook me. May it not be charged against them.
17 But the Lord stood with me and strengthened me, so that the message might be preached fully through me, and that all the Gentiles might hear. And I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
(NKJ)

Paul had every reason to cry out to the Lord about his "thorn in the flesh", everywhere he went he was confronted by satan. Who wants to stop the spread of the gospel? Who wants to hinder God as much as he could? Who attacks God's Word?...the answer should be obvious...satan...so he sends his messengers, and still does today.

But praise God it is soon coming to an end...but in the meantime, God has been gracious in giving us His Word, which He continues to protect...and He has given us apostles, evagelists, pastors and teachers...not to mention the gift of holy spirit...
🙂

Originally posted by vistesd
You know, one of the “theories” of rabbinical talmudic argument—even when the argument becomes heated (but without ad hominem attacks or insults, which are conspicuous by their absence in this thread, to the credit of all)—is that, by engaging in the argument, we honor torah (the scriptures), we honor each other and our intellects, and—according to th ...[text shortened]...

Just wanted to mention that, before I retire for awhile to pursue again my talmudic studies….

I agree wholeheartedly...thank you for you input...🙂

Originally posted by frogstomp
So Christ was illogical , too? Just how far do you plan to take this? Raising Paul to God status?
Christ's words are the ROCK

Matt
16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked
his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: so ...[text shortened]... save for using His name to further Paul's agenda.

robbing Peter to pay Paul?

There is only one Church on the planet that matters and it is not
a man made one either. It is filled only with those that have like
Peter had God the Father reveal to them Jesus’ salvation, and
have answered the call of God on their lives. The Church of
God isn't divided, only man is. The Church is filled with people
from many denominations, but only those that are right with God
through Jesus Christ, not those that belong to a singular
denomination of man no matter what the name of it is, from the
one I attend to Catholic or any other.
Kelly

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Your presumtion or speculation has nowhere to hang it's hat, so to speak. The reference is never made in scripture anywhere...however, right in the verse, it is a "messenger of Satan"...since a physical thorn(a thorn from a bush,etc.) would not apply as a messenger of Satan, I will take the Word of God at face falue. And since in previous usage it is ...[text shortened]... en us apostles, evagelists, pastors and teachers...not to mention the gift of holy spirit...
🙂

I have always thought God hid Paul's thorn from us. It was hidden
for our protection, and because of that it becomes more useful to us.
We each could have different thorns in our own lives and the same
thing is true no matter what the thorn is and we need to lead our
lives in the grace and mercy that God gives. Paul is just a man after
all, no differernt than any other we all share in God's grace and
mercy, we all need the blood of Christ on our sins to make us clean.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
There is only one Church on the planet that matters and it is not
a man made one either. It is filled only with those that have like
Peter had God the Father reveal to them Jesus’ salvation, and
have answered the call of God on their lives. The Church of
God isn't divided, only man is. The Church is filled with people
from many denominations, but only ...[text shortened]... f man no matter what the name of it is, from the
one I attend to Catholic or any other.
Kelly

even you put limits on the Kingdom.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I have always thought God hid Paul's thorn from us. It was hidden
for our protection, and because of that it becomes more useful to us.
We each could have different thorns in our own lives and the same
thing is true no matter what the thorn is and we need to lead our
lives in the grace and mercy that God gives. Paul is just a man after
all, no differe ...[text shortened]... in God's grace and
mercy, we all need the blood of Christ on our sins to make us clean.
Kelly

I don't think it was "hidden" at all, just misunderstood.
What we have are sins, and thorns...even though some of us might have more. Thorns is a figure Paul used to describe the attacks from those who opposed him. And he described perfectly who sent them.

And yes, Paul is just a man like any of us...but a man who "renewed his mind". that's all.

Rom 12:1-2
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
(NKJ)


🙂

Originally posted by frogstomp
even you put limits on the Kingdom.

The limit is Jesus Christ and those that have a right relationship
with God through Jesus, that boundry was setup by God not me.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The limit is Jesus Christ and those that have a right relationship
with God through Jesus, that boundry was setup by God not me.
Kelly

You speak for God?

Originally posted by frogstomp
You speak for God?

You can read scripture youself, you don't have to take my word
for it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You can read scripture youself, you don't have to take my word
for it.
Kelly

obviouly I don't take your word for it. especially since your word leads instantly to Error.

Originally posted by frogstomp
You speak for God?

An interesting comment, froggy...

If you believe in any kind of god at all, then we are all godspeaking. We are mere expresions of the godhood. As Sagan said: "We are all starstuff." Even Kelly & Mr.Baiter.

Originally posted by frogstomp
You speak for God?

Yes...any Christian who rightly divides the Word speaks for God.

2 Cor 5:20-21
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God...........🙂

Originally posted by frogstomp
obviouly I don't take your word for it. especially since your word leads instantly to Error.

Okay
Kelly

Originally posted by widget
An interesting comment, froggy...

If you believe in any kind of god at all, then we are all godspeaking. We are mere expresions of the godhood. As Sagan said: "We are all starstuff." Even Kelly & Mr.Baiter.

What I see in this and other posts is Paulspeak.
Paul is NOT God.

If you want to argue Deism there's a huge gap between you and the "christians".

There were Christians around the time of Christ that had a far more credible concept of the nature of God than the dogma that has been passed down to us. They were persecuted by the church, their books burned and the nature of God masked by a stone-age Anu alias. The result of the actions of violent ,ignorant men that that used oppression to gain control of the church is:christians have been held under a veil of ignorance for at least 1600 years.