When Pity can be downfall

I have never yet found a good reason for why Lot offered his daughters to the homosexual mob in Sodom. Maybe I'll find out someday.

But the victimized daughters were not in the same category as the perpetrators of gang rape.

This doesn't mean that God was displeased with the former crime but pleased with the latter.

But if we relate this to the giving or withholding of divine pity, mercy seems to be shown to the two daughters of Lot while the inhabitants of Sodom came to their last chance of repentance.

Having said that, it is very interesting that in the New Testament Jesus says that it will be more tolerable for the city Sodom in a future judgment than for the cities that rejected the visitation of the Son of God.

" And you, Capernaum, who have been exalted to heaven, to Hades you will be brought down. For if the works of power which took place in you had taken place in Sodom, it would have remained until this today.

But I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." (Matt. 11:23,24)

What this passage, and a few more like it, indicate to me is that:

1.) We do not know all the details of how God will judge the whole world.

2.) There seems temporal judgment related to life on earth which may not necessarily indicate someone's eternal destiny.

3.) If God knows what would have caused a people to repent, this may effect their final judgment.

4.) Don't be surprised if in the last judgment some very bad people of the past might be bewildered at latter ages that disbelieved in the Son of God.

IE. "What was with you people anyway? If we had had Jesus Christ among us or known of the New Testament we would have believed in Him to be saved."

Originally posted by sonship
I have never yet found a good reason for why Lot offered his daughters to the homosexual mob in Sodom. Maybe I'll find out someday.

But the victimized daughters were not in the same category as the perpetrators of gang rape.

This doesn't mean that God was displeased with the former crime but pleased with the latter.

But if we relate this to the ...[text shortened]... Jesus Christ among us or known of the New Testament we would have believed in Him to be saved."

confronted with a horrible passage from the bible, you ramble on and on about whatever strikes your fancy.


not one passage you wrote excuses what lot tried to do. nothing could EVER excuse what he tried to do. why the fuk don't you have the gram of human decency needed to condemn it?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
confronted with a horrible passage from the bible, you ramble on and on about whatever strikes your fancy.


not one passage you wrote excuses what lot tried to do. nothing could EVER excuse what he tried to do. why the fuk don't you have the gram of human decency needed to condemn it?

I acknowledge that it is a very difficult passage. In the full spectrum of things revealed by God there are passages easier to take and difficult to take.

Saul and the Amalekites is on the further end of difficult concepts in the whole revelation of the Bible. Not a show stopper.

Originally posted by sonship
I acknowledge that it is a very difficult passage. In the full spectrum of things revealed by God there are passages easier to take and difficult to take.

Saul and the Amalekites is on the further end of difficult concepts in the whole revelation of the Bible. Not a show stopper.

nobody said it is a show stopper.

i am a christian and i have no problem moving past those passage. they have absolutely no relevance to my faith as a christian.

i acknowledge there is horrible stuff in the bible because ignorant old men put it there 1000 years ago. we can move past that

I thank God for the story of Saul and the Amalekites. It is so instructive to the Christian. It is enlightening how we Christians all tend to save "the best of the sheep" and spare king Agag.

As the life of Jesus is growing in us seeking to fill more and more of our soul deeper levels of our being He comes upon to establish His kingship in us. After we are born again He seeks to saturate us and fill us room by room in our hearts. But He does meet resistance.

The logic and rationale with which we resist His spreading in our hearts is like the sparing of "the best of the sheep" and the preserving of king Agag. Often just the self pity puts up a fierce resistance to Christ, not realizing how greatly He loves us.

Again we see Saul's excusing of his disobedience on what appears the best reasons.

" And Samuel came to Saul, and Saul said to him, Blessed are you of Jehovah! I have fulfilled the word of Jehovah.

And Samuel said, What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears and the lowering of oxen that I hear.

And Saul said, They have been brought from the Amalekites; for the people spared the best of the sheep and oxen to sacrifice to Jehovah your God, and the rest we have utterly destroyed." (1 Sam. 15:13-15)

Nearly every Christian easily sees that the base has to go, and the obviously filthy has to go, and unclean, wicked, dirty and evil has to go.

But what about my politics? What about my religion? What about my cultural upbringing? What about my national philosophy? What about my racial pride? What about "the best of the sheep and oxen"?

We spare what we consider "the best" according to our morality. The illustration of Saul and the Amalekites touches this tendency in man to disobey God's command for absoluteness in turning over our whole being to His salvation.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
nobody said it is a show stopper.

i am a christian and i have no problem moving past those passage. they have absolutely no relevance to my faith as a christian.

i acknowledge there is horrible stuff in the bible because ignorant old men put it there 1000 years ago. we can move past that

nobody said it is a show stopper.

Oh. Well some here seemed to take the Bible like this:

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

And God told Saul to kill men, women, children, sheep, and oxen and spare nothing.

THE END.


The vigor with which many Internet infidels go after passages suggests they stop reading the Bible in disgust here.

i am a christian and i have no problem moving past those passage. they have absolutely no relevance to my faith as a christian.

Some things which are not meaningful to a Christian at one stage of their life become more meaningful at a latter stage.

These things in the OT were written for the admonition Christ's followers.

"Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our admonition, unto whom the end of the ages have come." ( 1 Cor. 10:11)

Men and women of God with pioneering experience help us more to get the benefit from these written things.

i acknowledge there is horrible stuff in the bible because ignorant old men put it there 1000 years ago. we can move past that

God told Samuel what to tell Saul.
This "horrible stuff" was commanded by God.

I think it instructs the Christian how the termination work of dying with Christ must be complete. And because we do not readily appreciate how low man fell we preserve what we deem is "the best" and even try to serve God with that.

Originally posted by sonship

nobody said it is a show stopper.

Oh. Well some here seemed to take the Bible like this:

[b]In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

And God told Saul to kill men, women, children, sheep, and oxen and spare nothing.

THE END.


The vigor with which many Internet infidels go after passages suggests they ...[text shortened]... low man fell we preserve what we deem is "the best" and even try to serve God with that.[/b]

i repeatedly said that christianity doesn't need the awful passages of the old testament.
i repeatedly said that christianity is not diminished by those awful passages, but it should have the moral integrity to distance itself from them.

i don't care what some "seem" to take the bible.
you are replying to me, so limit your arguments/counter arguments to what I say.

the OT is full of horribleness and decent people must acknowledge this.
does it have some good parts? sure. do the good parts excuse the bad? no.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi

i repeatedly said that christianity doesn't need the awful passages of the old testament.

The Christian faith needs the Old Testament. The New Testament says so.

i repeatedly said that christianity is not diminished by those awful passages, but it should have the moral integrity to distance itself from them.

I disagree.
But sometimes some things should be placed on the backburner until further light on them is received.

Your philosophy about it could be extended to the New Testament as well. IE. Some things between Matthew and Revelation Christians should "distance" themselves from.

They are embarrassing and supposedly Christians eliminate them as not worthy. Most of the people thinking this way are not thinking about living Christ but about self reformation and self improvement.

They think about just being "good people" with the help of Jesus a little if needed. This is modernist humanism.

Paul pioneered to allow himself to be crucified with Christ and let Christ completely impart His life and nature into Paul's daily living. This is the normal Christian life.

Going out there and being "good people" on your own power does not even need the New Testament. And those believing that way are essentially just using Jesus to condone their sense of being good moral people.

This kind of life cannot build the church.

i don't care what some "seem" to take the bible.
you are replying to me, so limit your arguments/counter arguments to what I say.

You have a better way to be a disciple of Jesus? You go try that.
Some of us take everything that proceeds out of the mouth of God as our necessary food.

There may be some milk.
There may be some soft meat.
There may be some harder meat.
And there may even be some bones - really hard.

We want the whole thing.

the OT is full of horribleness and decent people must acknowledge this. does it have some good parts? sure. do the good parts excuse the bad? no.

Some of us believe the Bible -

Proverbs 30:5-6King James Version (KJV)

5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar

[my bold]

Originally posted by sonship

i repeatedly said that christianity doesn't need the awful passages of the old testament.

The Christian faith needs the Old Testament. The New Testament says so.

i repeatedly said that christianity is not diminished by those awful passages, but it should have the moral integrity to distance itself from them.

...[text shortened]... d thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar [/quote]

[my bold]

"The Christian faith needs the Old Testament. The New Testament says so."
where is that
and who cares. the christian faith needs the OT genocides like islam needs suicide bombings.

" But sometimes some things should be placed on the backburner until further light on them is received."
they are freakin genocides. how much light do you need to shine on them? from what angle must you look at those abominable acts to understand them, let alone condone them?

" Your philosophy about it could be extended to the New Testament as well. IE. Some things between Matthew and Revelation Christians should "distance" themselves from. "
obviously. but i would rather postpone the removal of the homophobic (at a level reasonable for that time), sexist and delusional (john's revelations) material from the NT until after we get rid of the bloody genocides from the OT

" They think about just being "good people" with the help of Jesus a little if needed. This is modernist humanism. "
did you just scoff at people trying to be "good people"?

"And those believing that way are essentially just using Jesus to condone their sense of being good moral people. "
nonsense. but still, it is better than to use jesus to condone genocides.

" Going out there and being "good people" on your own power does not even need the New Testament."
so?

" This kind of life cannot build the church. "
don't care about your church.

" You have a better way to be a disciple of Jesus? You go try that."
yes. following his teachings. not bragging about "accepting the lord jesus and being saved" with no idea about what it means.

"And there may even be some bones - really hard.

We want the whole thing. "
normal people don't eat bones. they know to discard them.

" Proverbs 30:5-6King James Version (KJV)"
yes, a passage from the bible says every passage from the bible is pure. that's all the proof i need, i am convinced.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
"The Christian faith needs the Old Testament. The New Testament says so."
where is that
and who cares. the christian faith needs the OT genocides like islam needs suicide bombings.

" But sometimes some things should be placed on the backburner until further light on them is received."
they are freakin genocides. how much light do you need to shine o ...[text shortened]... he bible says every passage from the bible is pure. that's all the proof i need, i am convinced.

You think that the Bible is like a buffet where you can simply pick those elements which appeal to you and reject those that don't? Kind of sums up your approach, its all about you , isn't it, you are the most important element here. Anything which you deem to contradict your personal preferences is stupid and ignorant. Such an approach is simply intellectually lazy for rather than attempting to find reason you simply reject whatever irks your spiritually myopic sanitized personal point of view. Its only a matter of time before we see the book of Zahlanzi appear in place of those passages you reject.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
[b]You think that the Bible is like a buffet where you can simply pick those elements which appeal to you and reject those that don't?

Okay, now this is not an attack on your 'denomination' (though you'll probably take it as such) but do you understand that for many observers (rightly or wrongly) this is precisely what Jehovah Witnesses appear to do?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi

"The Christian faith needs the Old Testament. The New Testament says so."

where is that
and who cares.

Christ the central Person of the Bible cares for "all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms" (Luke 24:44) . He said it was all concerning Himself.

This doesn't mean I would send a new believer to read a book like Joshua first. Level's of growth in spiritual life are a consideration.

the christian faith needs the OT genocides like islam needs suicide bombings.

Christians need to see that there are times when our fallen sentiments may actually be self deceiving and also in rebellion against God.

There are times when our whole being seems to doubt God's pure motive and good heart. We consider Peter's wish that Jesus would spare Himself from going to be killed. Jesus turned and rebuked Peter calling him Satan.

We do not see that Peter's appealing that the Son of God have pity on Himself concealed Satan hiding in his sympathetic opinion.

And Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, God be merciful to You, Lord! This shall by no means happen to You!

But He turned and said to Peter, Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men. (Matt. 16:22,23)

Satan was hiding out in Peter's sense of human pity on THIS particular occasion. The Old Testament is needed to give us a picture that ON OCCASION ... Satanic rebellion can be masked by our fallen sentiments.

they are freakin genocides. how much light do you need to shine on them? from what angle must you look at those abominable acts to understand them, let alone condone them?

I take the few instances in the OT of this kind of action as one time instructions to the one time theocratic nation that God had on earth.

You may certainly take your complaint in prayer to God. But I have learned that God cannot be wrong. His intention is good, His motive is pure, and His way is right.

It may be that one day God will say to you "I was right. But on this you were right also." What I mean by this is that you may have some ground to complain to God. But there also is probably a lack of understanding of some things simply because His knowledge is eternal and yours and mine are not.

Anyway, I don't take the story as any kind of national instructions as to how a modern country should conduct its military. I apply it toward MYSELF in the way of seeking for Jesus to have complete victory over my soul. Self preservation can mask rebellion.

In the previous passage about Jesus rebuking Peter for wanting Him to pity Himself, Jesus continues:

" ... for you re not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men.

Then Jesus said to His disciples, If anyone wants to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross an follow Me." (vs.24,25)

The story shows that we may deny the obviously sinful but spare what we do not realize is also against God. Again, Saul spared those things to use them to worship God, pleased with himself, thinking he was doing the right thing.

It is a hard lesson. And I don't blame anyone for being baffled by it.
It is not the first thing I would recommend a seeker for God should go study in the Bible. But you will not get me to apologize for God that it was written also.

"but i would rather postpone the removal of the homophobic (at a level reasonable for that time), sexist and delusional (john's revelations) material from the NT until after we get rid of the bloody genocides from the OT

We should be fearful that greedy unbridled sexual lust does not run rampant. If others call this "phobic" we just have to bear that.

Why didn't Jesus Christ condemn the God of the Old Testament ?
Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus condemn God's commands in Genesis with the flood or Sodom and Gomorrah. Nowhere does Jesus condemn God for the Canaanite conquest in Joshua. Why not?

Rather Jesus refers to His Father as "Righteous Father"

"Righteous Father, though the world has not known You, yet I have known You, and these have known that You have sent Me." (John 17:26)

No one was more qualified to condemn evil if it occurred from God in the Old Testament. There is no such teaching from Jesus echoing your denunciations of homophobia and genocide. Why not?

did you just scoff at people trying to be "good people"?

I recognize that in the spiritual journey to being conformed to the image of Christ, we gradually deepen in our realization that God only wants Christ in us and Christ lived out from us.

This is a process of widening and deepening realization.
I do not teach a brand new Christian - "You must not be a good person now."

But I will advize them that that as they continue on to grow in the Lord they will come to have less and less confidence in the flesh. As Paul said:

"For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boat in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh." (Phil. 3:3)

The Apostle learned that Old Testament circumcision was also a sign. All of the fallen nature had to be terminated. Christ as the Spirit must permeate the Christian's whole being. And by process, we learn not to boast in the flesh, even the good and cultured flesh. We learn to have no confidence in the natural man.

nonsense. but still, it is better than to use jesus to condone genocides.

I use to have a problem with God interrupting the building of the Tower of Babel. The people were united. The people were all one and spoke the same language. I just could not see why God would terminate the unity of mankind at that time.

Latter after more experience in the church life I understood more. But that is not the topic here.

In a similar way, I expect that there will be places where I simply do not agree with God's actions. It seems everything in me cries out that this is wrong and I wish it was not in the Bible. But on a number of these I have changed.

The subtlety of God's enemy is far beyond our perception. It is not beyond the perception of God who knows everything. And the Bible will include, on the extreme side of difficult instances, certain particular times when His drastic dealing is manifested for our learning.

My concern has been the New Testament application of this matter. The conquest is toward the self. The captain of salvation is Jesus Christ living within me.

I think someday you might read thoroughly the entire rest of the story of King Saul with prayer. Perhaps God will show you more.

" This kind of life cannot build the church. "
don't care about your church.

God cares about the building of His church.
The building of His church issues in the New Jerusalem in Rev. 21,22. And the building of the church and of New Jerusalem is God's eternal purpose.

The church universal and local is God's eternal purpose. It is the dwelling place of God in spirit, the habitation of God. It is the way God comes to dwell on the earth.

"Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone;

In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;

In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:20-21)

Christ said He will build His church. And the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it (though they try hard) - Matthew 16:18. And the builded church (universal and local) is closely related to the kingdom of God.

"I will build My church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens ..."

So by turning ourselves over to be saturated with Christ we are building the church and bringing in the kingdom. This is why obstacles to building up the dwelling place of God must be exposed. We must let the cross of Christ operate to release us from them no matter how subtle they appear. We have to let the divine nature in Christ fill us up for the kingdom of the heavens here on the earth.

A critical mass is all God needs. He just needs some to cooperate. You go ahead and continue to have confidence in your condemning ethical sentiments.

Some of us are going to take from the Amalekite lesson a cautionary word on being thorough to let Jesus Christ fully fill our lives.