Originally posted by RJHindsJust like your age of Earth. I say it's approximately 4 1/2 billion years old. You say it's EXACTLY 6000 years old.
As long as the term "Pharaoh" was being used at the time of Moses, that is good enough, because he is the one that wrote it down. So obviously, if the Pharaoh died in the sea, it would be at the end of his reign. Getting the exact date is not that important as long as it is at the approximate time. No one is sure of those times anyway, they are all just educated guesses.
Originally posted by RJHindsOrthodox Jews tell me Moses was on Mount Sinai receiving the Ten Commandments in 1312 BCE.
I don't see how that works.
Where did your article get this number:
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_archaeology_Egypt_Moses
According to Biblical chronology, Moses was born in 1530 BC
Again, according to the Rabbis at the Yeshiva (Orthodox Jewish religious school) which I used to work at, Moses was born in 1392 BCE.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm
Originally posted by AThousandYoungThat does not seem to work either. Do you know how they make their dates agree with the Holy Bible?
Orthodox Jews tell me Moses was on Mount Sinai receiving the Ten Commandments in 1312 BCE.
Where did your article get this number:
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_archaeology_Egypt_Moses
According to Biblical chronology, Moses was born in 1530 BC
Again, according to the Rabbis at the Yeshiva (Orthodox Jewish religi ...[text shortened]... es was born in 1392 BCE.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm
Originally posted by RJHindsThey got their dates FROM the Bible.
That does not seem to work either. Do you know how they make their dates agree with the Holy Bible?
What do you mean "that does not seem to work"? Where are you getting your numbers from? Your articles don't show any sources or analysis.
Originally posted by AThousandYounghttp://www.conservapedia.com/Date_of_the_Exodus
They got their dates FROM the Bible.
What do you mean "that does not seem to work"? Where are you getting your numbers from? Your articles don't show any sources or analysis.
The above articles gives another Pharaoh for the Exodus. It seems to work better with the time period that would result from the biblical record than those you give and it does mention some analysis. Obviously any attempt at dating is going to be speculative because there are no dates mentioned during those periods. We only have years mentioned and in some cases we can't be sure if all the reigns of the Pharaohs are consecutive. There seem to be more than one Pharaoh ruling at the same time.
Originally posted by RJHindsJust tell us that you don't know and you don't care.
http://www.conservapedia.com/Date_of_the_Exodus
The above articles gives another Pharaoh for the Exodus. It seems to work better with the time period that would result from the biblical record than those you give and it does mention some analysis. Obviously any attempt at dating is going to be speculative because there are no dates mentioned during thos ...[text shortened]... f the Pharaohs are consecutive. There seem to be more than one Pharaoh ruling at the same time.
Tuthmosis IV death and sudden decline of the Eqyptian Empire fits very well with him being the Pharaoh of the Exodus according to Steven Collins, PHD.
Using Historical Synchronisms to Identify the Pharaoh of the Exodus
by Steven Collins, PHD
If Tuthmosis IV was the Pharaoh of the Exodus, then the combined impact of the core events of the Exodus scenario—the ten plagues, the plundering of wealth, the loss of a large labor force, the loss of Delta military forces, and the death of Pharaoh—would have had an immediate effect on the ability of the Egyptian empire, then arguably at its peak, to maintain a grip on its Asiatic territories.
That is precisely what happened upon the death of Tuthmosis IV. In fact, at no other point in the history of the Eighteenth Dynasty can any clearer line of demarcation be drawn between imperial strength and the beginning of Egypt’s decline. At the point of Tuthmosis IV’s death, what is predicted of Egypt on the basis of the Exodus core events actually took place. In the
reign of his son, Amenhotep III, a definite decline in Egyptian hegemony over Canaan and Syria ensued. During the transition years from Amenhotep III to Amenhotep IV, the Hittites, with impunity, attacked Mittani and took control of Syria. By the early reign of Amenhotep IV, Egypt had, for all practical purposes, lost control of its Asiatic territories and was experiencing a decline, particularly in terms of its former imperial vision.
With Tuthmosis IV as Pharaoh of the Exodus, historical synchronisms align most realistically.
See page 40.
When using historical synchronisms to link the biblical Exodus scenario with a commensurate portion of Eighteenth Dynasty history, I have used only relative dating. Although absolute dating may be more convenient once fixed chronological reference points are established, relative dating is how the ancients understood the timeframes of their world.
How fuzzy is the absolute chronology of ancient Egypt? From the perspective of absolute dating, pretty fuzzy. Take the Eighteenth Dynasty, for example. Scholars are generally divided into three chronological camps: high, middle, and low (see Table 17). If you follow the high chronology, the Eighteenth Dynasty begins in 1570 BCE (Amosis), places the death of
Tuthmosis IV in 1417 BCE, and ends in 1320 BCE (Horemheb). If you hold to the middle chronology, it begins in 1570 BCE (Amosis), places Tuthmosis IV’s death in 1386 BCE, and ends in 1293 BCE (Horemheb). If you take the low chronology, the Eighteenth Dynasty begins in 1540 BCE (Amosis), puts the death of Tuthmosis IV in 1391 BCE, and ends in 1295
BCE (Horemheb). Other configurations either raise or lower these dates.
If the historical synchronism approach, which I have put forth, reasonably identifies Tuthmosis IV as the Pharaoh of the Exodus—with his death at the time of the Exodus—then adjusting the absolute date of the death of Tuthmosis IV to the date of the Exodus should give us a more accurate depiction of the comprehensive history of the period.
The possible biblical dates for the Exodus are 1446 BCE (MT) and 1406 BCE (LXX)—remember that these are “rounded approximations”—based on the reading of 1 Kings 6:1. Thus, the death of Tuthmosis IV would have occurred in one of these two approximate timeframes, neither of which does much damage to the existing chronologies (see Tables 18 and 19).
Compared to the high chronology, a 1446 date for the death of Tuthmosis IV would raise the chronology of the Eighteenth Dynasty by about 29 years. Compared to the middle and low chronologies, an upward adjustment of 55 to 60 years would be necessary.
What I have proposed on the basis of historical synchronisms—that Tuthmosis IV is the Pharaoh of the Exodus—is entirely possible within the range of absolute dating already proposed for that period. For those who take the Bible seriously as a historical document, there will be no problem making such an adjustment. For those whose paradigms disallow the historicity of the Hexateuch, such a revision is still not unreasonable if historical synchronisms between the Exodus narrative and the history of the Eighteenth Dynasty point in that direction.
http://www.biblicalresearchbulletin.com/uploads/BRB-2005-8-Collins-Pharaoh_of_Exodus.pdf
Analysis of why Tuthmosis IV works best and why he rejects other possible Pharaohs is also given in the reference.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungThis fits with Amenhotep III (ruled c.1391–1353 B.C.), he dies at about the right time and his eldest son Thutmose disappeared from the records around his 3rd decade. He appears to have died of natural causes. Interestingly his successor was Akhenaten (ruled 1353–1336 B.C.) who made an attempt to convert Egypt to monotheism under the God Aten. I'd consider this a real possibility, but prefer Seqenenre Tao (circa 1550B.C.) since he died in battle. This also gives a bit more time for the rest of the stuff in Exodus and Judges to happen in before Saul's reign.
Orthodox Jews tell me Moses was on Mount Sinai receiving the Ten Commandments in 1312 BCE.
Where did your article get this number:
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_archaeology_Egypt_Moses
According to Biblical chronology, Moses was born in 1530 BC
Again, according to the Rabbis at the Yeshiva (Orthodox Jewish religi ...[text shortened]... es was born in 1392 BCE.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htm
Originally posted by DeepThoughtDuring Seqenenre Tao's time, Egypt was controlled by the Hyksos. Thutmose III is the one who conquered Canaan and enslaved the Jews.
This fits with Amenhotep III (ruled c.1391–1353 B.C.), he dies at about the right time and his eldest son Thutmose disappeared from the records around his 3rd decade. He appears to have died of natural causes. Interestingly his successor was Akhenaten (ruled 1353–1336 B.C.) who made an attempt to convert Egypt to monotheism under the God Aten. I'd con ...[text shortened]... a bit more time for the rest of the stuff in Exodus and Judges to happen in before Saul's reign.
Originally posted by RJHindsHe's using 1 Kings 6.
[b]Tuthmosis IV death and sudden decline of the Eqyptian Empire fits very well with him being the Pharaoh of the Exodus according to Steven Collins, PHD.
Using Historical Synchronisms to Identify the Pharaoh of the Exodus
by Steven Collins, PHD
If Tuthmosis IV was the Pharaoh of the Exodus, then the combined impact of the core events o ...[text shortened]... thmosis IV works best and why he rejects other possible Pharaohs is also given in the reference.[/b]
6 Now it came about in the four hundred and eightieth year after the sons of Israel came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv which is the second month, that he [a]began to build the house of the Lord.
~1312 BCE for the Ten Commandments (part of Exodus - date taken from Orthodox Jewish rabbis), plus 480 years, gives us...932 BCE.
Solomon took power about 970 BCE. So those numbers are pretty close. But if you assume they left Egypt way back in 1550 BCE, then Solomon would have ruled in approximately 1100 BCE, which is false.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungThe way that verse is used is to count backward in time from the date of Solomon's reign. Wikipedia says, "The conventional dates of Solomon's reign are circa 970 to 931 BC." If that is correct then adding 480 years to 966 B.C. gives 1446 B.C. as the date of the Exodus. Nebuchadnezzar conquered Egypt and destroyed Jerusalem and Solomon's temple in either 587 or 586 B.C.
He's using 1 Kings 6.
6 Now it came about in the four hundred and eightieth year after the sons of Israel came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv which is the second month, that he [a]began to build the house of the Lord.
~1312 BCE for the Ten Commandments (part of Exod ...[text shortened]... t way back in 1550 BCE, then Solomon would have ruled in approximately 1100 BCE, which is false.