13 Sep 05
Originally posted by bbarrI have not looked up the Greek version of the Apostle’s Creed, but in the Nicene Creed, the word generally translated as believe is pisteuomen, the first-person plural of pisteo. Now, although this is usually translated as we/I believe, the original Greek would be closer to “I/we trust” (pisteo is an active verb that could be translated as “I faith” ). The English word “believe” was originally closer to this meaning than a contemporary “I think” or “that is what I conclude.” Therefore, it could be expressed as a decision to place one’s confidence in a given proposition, however one understands it. A rough analogy I have used before is that of a quarterback who throws the “hail Mary” pass with as much confidence and trust (pistis) as he can muster, but without any certainty of the outcome. In this sense, “faith” may be inextricably twined with “hope.”
Nice point. Perhaps the term 'believe' in the above creed is supposed to indicate something more than just doxastic commitment. When someone claims "I believe in love", they rarely mean merely "I believe in the existence of love".
13 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by bbarrYou're right - there is no analytical connection.
There is no analytical connection between believing that Jesus was the son of God and being motivated to act in accord with his teachings. If you want to maintain that those who bomb abortion clinics are not real Christians (as I'm sure you do), then you ought to ammend the above criteria to include acting in accord with Jesus' teachings.
The term "Christian" can be used in two senses - from a doctrinal perspective (e.g. Christian vs. Jew or Muslim) and a behavioural one (e.g. "Christian living", "Christian values" ). The criteria mentioned is intended to be doctrinal. Naturally, a "good" atheist can display more "Christian values" (and hence be "more Christian" or a "better Christian" ) than many (if not most) [doctrinal] Christians.
13 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesSee my response to bbarr above. My test that is intended to be doctrinal (which would make sense in the comparison of two sects/denominations/Churches) rather than behavioural.
Perhaps not, given your understanding of Christianity, but it is consistent with the Creed, which is your proposed sufficient criterion.
It only fails to make sense if your notion of Christianity necessarily encompasses something more than your proposed sufficient criterion.
Edit: What bbarr said.
EDIT: But it does not exclude the notion that "believe" is more than just an affirmation of truth, but also includes some degree of personal commitment.
13 Sep 05
Originally posted by bbarrAll other things being equal, from a doctrinal perspective - yes.
So self-professed Christians who do not believe in the physical resurrection of the body are less Christian than those who do?
Elsewhere, Nemesio (where is he, btw) has argued that the "resurrection of the body" can be interpreted in a metaphorical fashion, so perhaps such Christians might not fail on the 12th article.
13 Sep 05
Originally posted by no1marauderOf course. Most Protestants drop the Deutero-Canonicals from their Bibles. IIRC, Luther wanted to drop the Epistle of James as well.
Indeed as the Creed makes no mention of the Bible itself, one could reject that the Bible contains ANY of Jesus' teachings and still satisfy the criteria given.
13 Sep 05
Originally posted by bbarrGood point. Isn't it James who said that even the demons believe in Christ?
Nice point. Perhaps the term 'believe' in the above creed is supposed to indicate something more than just doxastic commitment. When someone claims "I believe in love", they rarely mean merely "I believe in the existence of love".
So perhaps the test should be more than just a doxastic commitment.
13 Sep 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerMk.16:17-18 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
Since there has been some debate recently over whether Catholics and Mormons are Christians, I thought it might be a good idea to try and see if we could come up with a "litmus" test for Christians.
The first place to look would be the dictionary:
Merriam-Webster Online:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=christian
Ma ...[text shortened]... ia.org/wiki/Apostles_Creed
(2) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01629a.htm
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Cheers,
LH
Lk.10:19 "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."
13 Sep 05
Originally posted by lamarrswailsMore importantly,
Christians are those that have obeyed Christ - period!
His church are made up of those who have obeyed the gospel, and his church is non-denominational.
Christians are people/sinners who have a personal relationationship with God:Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We love and worship him because He saved us from eternal damnation. We had nothing to do with it except accepting His gift to us - Grace.
By having a personal relationship with Him we try to follow Him, Jesus (not other Christians) as closely as possible. When you love someone you wouldn't want to hurt them. So, with God, when you love Him you don't want to hurt Him by disobeying His commandments. We don't always get it right because we are still made of flesh and are here in a fallen world (and we have the devil and his demons to put up with). One day when we die then we will become perfect again.
Most people and all the spirits (good and evil) believe in Jesus Christ, the question is how many truly know him??
"Love God with your mind body and soul, and do as you please"
14 Sep 05
Originally posted by mrnorterMost people...believe in Jesus Christ
More importantly,
Christians are people/sinners who have a personal relationationship with God:Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We love and worship him because He saved us from eternal damnation. We had nothing to do with it except accepting His gift to us - Grace.
By having a personal relationship with Him we try to follow Him, Jesus (not other Christians ...[text shortened]... is how many truly know him??
"Love God with your mind body and soul, and do as you please"
Where did you get this idea?