Who Jesus is and is not.

@ThinkOfOne

If you want to believe in a "free gift" theology that is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked Earth, then that's what you'll believe.

So ToO teaches that the book of Ephesians is "completely alien to the gospel."

The qualifier "while He walked the Earth" is entirely irrelevant and unnecessary.
It is a beloved qualifying phrase of yours which is completely USELESS , distracting, pretentious, and showy.
Who do you think you are impressing with this "while He walked the Earth" ?

@sonship said
@ThinkOfOne

And if that is NOT what I mean then are these verses you sited incompatible with receiving the GIFT of eternal salvation ?

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; Not of works that no one should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9)

Do you hold that if I believe Eph. 2:8,9 then John 5:28,29, Matt. 13:49 I MUST discard as erroneous ? Or vica versa.

All that is necessary is that you read the whole teachings of Paul rather than cherry pick the saved by grace through faith passages. If you continue on you will read a few chapters down in Ephesians that righteousness and good works are REQUIRED for eternal salvation.

Paul continues to stress the point that OBEDIENCE is necessary for eternal salvation. Failure means that there is no entry into the Kingdom of God.

@kellyjay said
Yes and?

"Yes and?" what?

If you can't hear what Jesus is saying, then you can't hear what Jesus is saying.

@sonship said
@ThinkOfOne

If you want to believe in a "free gift" theology that is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked Earth, then that's what you'll believe.

So ToO teaches that the book of Ephesians is "completely alien to the gospel."

The qualifier "while He walked the Earth" is entirely irrelevant and unneces ...[text shortened]... pretentious, and showy.
Who do you think you are impressing with this "while He walked the Earth" ?

This is what you do jaywill. I wrote this:
"...a 'free gift' theology that is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus"

And you twisted it into:
"So ToO teaches that the book of Ephesians is 'completely alien to the gospel'."

You're so dishonest. Based on your posting history and those of many other Christians on this forum, evidently it's the "Christian" way to be.

@thinkofone said
"Yes and?" what?

If you can't hear what Jesus is saying, then you can't hear what Jesus is saying.

I can read what Jesus and the Word says, what you suggest isn't always Biblical.
So I have to ask, since your doctrine isn't something you can get from reading scripture.

@kellyjay said
I can read what Jesus and the Word says, what you suggest isn't always Biblical.
So I have to ask, since your doctrine isn't something you can get from reading scripture.

It's simple KJ.

You determine what Jesus said based on the dogma that you've been taught. You twist it to make it fit without regard to the words actually spoken by Jesus.

On the other hand, I determine what Jesus said based on what He actually said - both within the immediate context and within the context of the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth in its entirety. So no - it isn't "Biblical" (which amounts to according to the dogma that you've been taught).

@thinkofone said
It's simple KJ.

You determine what Jesus said based on the dogma that you've been taught. You twist it to make it fit without regard to the words actually spoken by Jesus.

On the other hand, I determine what Jesus said based on what He actually said - both within the immediate context and within the context of the gospel preached by Jesus while He walked the Earth i ...[text shortened]... rety. So no - it isn't "Biblical" (which amounts to according to the dogma that you've been taught).

You preach what He actually said, wow, this something only you have access to?

@kellyjay said
You preach what He actually said, wow, this something only you have access to?

This is yet another example of how you disingenuously toss out red herrings as a way to avoid addressing the matter at hand.

For the record you've been trying to avoid addressing the following in any meaningful way:

Then there is what Jesus said:
Matthew 16
27“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

John 5
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 13
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Which echoes what God said:
Ezekiel 33
17“Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But it is their way that is not just. 18 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, they will die for it. 19 And if a wicked person turns away from their wickedness and does what is just and right, they will live by doing so. 20 Yet you Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”

Which was in response to the following assertion made by you:
"He is going to have those that trust in their own works and righteous cast into the lake of fire."

Go ahead KJ. Try to address it in a meaningful way.

@thinkofone said
This is yet another example of how you disingenuously toss out red herrings as a way to avoid addressing the matter at hand.

For the record you've been trying to avoid addressing the following in any meaningful way:

Then there is what Jesus said:
Matthew 16
27“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REP ...[text shortened]... y of the Lord is not just.’ [b]But I will judge each of you according to your own ways.”

Actually, I'm not at all denying those things. Never once, no red herrings have been coming from me on any of those. Each and every sinner's sins will be paid for in full without exception. Are you ready to give an account of every one of your sins right now?

@kellyjay said
Actually, I'm not at all denying those things. Never once, no red herrings have been coming from me on any of those. Each and every sinner's sins will be paid for in full without exception. Are you ready to give an account of every one of your sins right now?

Try actually addressing what I wrote KJ.

@thinkofone said
Try actually addressing what I wrote KJ.

I did an you have not addressed by question!

@ThinkOfOne

You're so dishonest. Based on your posting history and those of many other Christians on this forum, evidently it's the "Christian" way to be.

Forget about the attempted guilt trip. You teach that Ephesians is alien to the Gospel.
I stand by it. And I don't mean one verse in Ephesians or one chapter in Ephesians.
I mean the ENTIRE epistle you believe is alien to the Gospel.

You lack the courage or forthrightness to come out and say so.

@kellyjay said
I did an you have not addressed by question!

You've shown once again that there is no point in trying to have a reasoned discussion rooted in intellectual honesty with you.

@sonship said
@ThinkOfOne

You're so dishonest. Based on your posting history and those of many other Christians on this forum, evidently it's the "Christian" way to be.

Forget about the attempted guilt trip. You teach that Ephesians is alien to the Gospel.
I stand by it. And I don't mean one verse in Ephesians or one chapter in Ephesians.
I me ...[text shortened]... ou believe is alien to the Gospel.

You lack the courage or forthrightness to come out and say so.

I wrote this:
"...a 'free gift' theology that is completely alien to the gospel preached by Jesus"

And you twisted it into:
"So ToO teaches that the book of Ephesians is 'completely alien to the gospel'."

@thinkofone said
You shown once again that there no point in trying to have a reasoned discussion rooted in intellectual honesty with you.

Yea, yea this is your pattern. If you were ever concern with a reasoned discussion, or any other type of discussion you'd actually engage in a give and take.

I will gladly answer one question from you if you'd answer one of mine, then we can go another round till we hash out the differences or just agree to disagree.

The only thing is no backing out and staying on topic. You game or you going to come us with some cop out?

Up to you.