25 May 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoI see, in your above post, that you have put across the entire nest building of the bower birds as an evolutionary feature. The bower bird's nest -- even without the canopy-- is startlingly beautiful. The canopy is an obvious embellishment and makes it even more beautiful.When humans like me are impressed with the photographs, it is obvious that the female bower bird will be bowled over with the nest even though it may not have a canopy. To take the matter further, the Bower Bird conducts a dance around the the nest after the nest is built, sort of an extra insurance that the female will be attracted. The idea of Beauty in the construction and pointing towards the construction by way of the dance makes me think that if this evolutionary feature it is an overkill. But Beauty of appearance is present in almost all the birds and animals in a overabundant manner.What has evolution to do with overabundance of a feature like beauty ?
May be. I confess my ignorance of availability of evidence for transfer of traits of the hosts through the genes.
But, take the example of human traits transferred. Examples are ability to play a musical instrument right from the childhood, although none of his/her living ancestor has been a player-- so no copying is involved. Playing chess or being a ma ...[text shortened]... is the evolutional significance of the provision of canopy in the Australian Bower bird nest ?
25 May 12
Originally posted by VoidSpiritBirds did not evolve they were were created by God.
nests predate birds because birds evolved from previous species.
And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” And there was evening, and there was morning —the fifth day.
(Genesis 1:20-23 NKJV)
26 May 12
4 edits
Originally posted by RJHindsdo you have any sources that are not a mythology in support for your statement by fiat that a god created birds?
Birds did not evolve they were were created by God.
And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird a earth.” And there was evening, and there was morning —the fifth day.
(Genesis 1:20-23 NKJV)
and what about the birds that don't fly? what about the ones that run or swim instead?
and what about bats, they're not birds yet they fly "across the vault of the sky"
26 May 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoYes the mound is the nest! it can take six months to build they make compost inside the nest with leaves to generate the heat, they control the temperature throughout the period it takes the eggs to hatch! No sorry idk about the weaver birds
Saw the video you have marked. Is the big mound the nest ? A fantastic effort on the part of the bird and pretty workmanlike, too.
I am a bird lover too and we, in India, have of course the Weaver birds with their nests with inner and outer chambers. We also have the Tailor bird, who stitches the nest together with grass leaves taken up in his beak and ...[text shortened]... building.
Do you know about the behaviour of the Weaver birds in respect of the nest building ?
Originally posted by tim88The male weaver bird ( ploceus philippinus ) builds the nest in the mating season and not one nest but several ones ! The males usually choose one tree or a clump of trees isolated from other trees and all of them gather on the chosen tree/trees and start building, singing songs as they do ! The idea is to attract female weaver birds, who come to the tree/s, in droves and inspect the nests already completed and each of the female birds enter a nest particularly liked by her and the male comes and makes her lay eggs and moves on to another nest built by him where another female may be waiting for him !
Yes the mound is the nest! it can take six months to build they make compost inside the nest with leaves to generate the heat, they control the temperature throughout the period it takes the eggs to hatch! No sorry idk about the weaver birds
The nests are inverted, pitcher shaped with two chambers, one for the male being the outer chamber and the egg incubating room inside for the female.
Have a look at several web sites available and enjoy !!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4uRm3X9xcQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baya_Weaver
26 May 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoClearly what is passed on are the genes that make it easier to learn those skills. No need for any Lamarckian process.
But, take the example of human traits transferred. Examples are ability to play a musical instrument right from the childhood, although none of his/her living ancestor has been a player-- so no copying is involved.
Playing chess or being a mathematical prodigy has really no evolutional significance.
But the abilities that aid those skills do have evolutional significance.
Yet we see such traits passed on to the succeeding generations in a stop-start way, no copying of a parent being involved.
As I said, in such cases it has more to do with the abilities than the specific skill.
Is Lamarck's theory totally disproved ?
As far as I know there is zero evidence for it and significant evidence against it. If it is a factor then it is too insignificant to pick up statistically.
By the way, what is the evolutional significance of the provision of canopy in the Australian Bower bird nest ?
I don't know. I could makes various guesses, but they would be just guesses as I have not studied the birds or their bowers beyond one Wikipedia page and a few wildlife documentaries.
26 May 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadI refer you to David Attenborough's film on the bower bird:-
Clearly what is passed on are the genes that make it easier to learn those skills. No need for any Lamarckian process.
[b] Playing chess or being a mathematical prodigy has really no evolutional significance.
But the abilities that aid those skills do have evolutional significance.
Yet we see such traits passed on to the succeeding generatio ...[text shortened]... studied the birds or their bowers beyond one Wikipedia page and a few wildlife documentaries.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPbWJPsBPdA
You see a bower bird actually adding to the pile of bright coloured flower bouquets kept nearby to attract the female, one also sees the dancing ground, the neat piles of acorn like nuts and not the least a few yellow coloured leaves which also serve as decoration of the nest. The construction of the nest is supported by two upright sticks and the roof reveals a canopy like projection although this bird has not made a neater job of the canopy.
I am also puzzled by the sense of neatness, the overwhelming sense of beauty that one sees here and wonders how is that each little trick, each little trait and habit has been acquired through evolution alone ? Hard to agree.
26 May 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
The male weaver bird ( ploceus philippinus ) builds the nest in the mating season and not one nest but several ones ! The males usually choose one tree or a clump of trees isolated from other trees and all of them gather on the chosen tree/trees and start building, singing songs as they do ! The idea is to attract female weaver birds, who come to the tree ...[text shortened]... able and enjoy !!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4uRm3X9xcQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baya_Weaver
The above is a most unbelievable performance by a Lyre bird imitating various voices of his jungle mates and incredibly also the sounds of David Attenborough's speech.
It is utterly fantastic and I make a very strong recommendation to all who want to see the wondrous side of Nature !!!
26 May 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoHere I have used the word " nest " wrongly. It is actually a " bower ", a bachelor's pad where the mating will take place after the female has approved the bower.
I refer you to David Attenborough's film on the bower bird:-
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPbWJPsBPdA
You see a bower bird actually adding to the pile of bright coloured flower bouquets kept nearby to attract the female, one also sees the dancing ground, the neat piles of acorn like nuts and not the least a few yellow coloured leaves which also serve as deco ...[text shortened]... e trick, each little trait and habit has been acquired through evolution alone ? Hard to agree.
I also refer all of you to two papers which describe bird behaviour in controlled experiments conducted in labs. http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/08/06/aesop-was-right-birds-use-rocks-to-raise-water-level/ http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/05/19/mockingbird-to-annoying-human-hey-i-know-you/
26 May 12
1 edit
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoWOW That's Amazing! Amazing! WOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV35ZO2gO1o
The above is a most unbelievable performance by a Lyre bird imitating various voices of his jungle mates and incredibly also the sounds of David Attenborough's speech.
It is utterly fantastic and I make a very strong recommendation to all who want to see the wondrous side of Nature !!!
Proof for you non believers - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyrebird
26 May 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoWell evolution makes more sense than your idea that has zero evidential support whereas evolution has mountains of evidence.
I am also puzzled by the sense of neatness, the overwhelming sense of beauty that one sees here and wonders how is that each little trick, each little trait and habit has been acquired through evolution alone ? Hard to agree.
26 May 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoYou should look up birds of paradise too.
The above is a most unbelievable performance by a Lyre bird imitating various voices of his jungle mates and incredibly also the sounds of David Attenborough's speech.
It is utterly fantastic and I make a very strong recommendation to all who want to see the wondrous side of Nature !!!
27 May 12
Originally posted by twhiteheadIs this a sarcastic comment or straightforward advice ? I am presuming the latter.
You should look up birds of paradise too.
There are quite a few species of " birds of paradise " in India and I have seen these birds in real life and not their videos.
The long white ribbon like tails fluttering in the wind when the male birds fly make them somewhat a pretty picture but the male birds are not good fliers; as a result of their cumbersome tails. A disadvantageous evolutionary adaptation because while the male bird may well attract a female bird because of the plumage, it does hamper his flight.
I urge you to read the Discover magazine blogs, referred by me, esp. on the experiments reg. the intelligence of crows.