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Originally posted by Rajk999Do you believe that the murderer Robert Louis Dear who is a born again Christian and who is saved eternally [according to you and him] has the Holy Spirit?
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I do not know about the case you mention. I know the case of myself. And after these many years if the Holy Spirit is still with me, I definitely believe as Jesus said He will be with me forever.
If you are not familiar with this story here is the link
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/revealed-planned-parenthood-killer-believed-christs-forgiveness-meant-he-could-get-away-with-anything/
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I did not look at the story. I suppose it speaks of someone who alledgedly was regenerated but foolishly said he could get away with anything. Is that the essence of it ?
So that is what he said, nothing more.
How many times does the Bible mention "a thousand years" following the second coming of Christ in Revelation 20 ?
That is at least one thousand years BEFORE the eternal age of Revelation 21 & 22. That means one thousand years at least God has additional time after the church age to discipline His sons.
That is one thousand years at least after the second coming of Christ that some of His sons have time to be "saved yet so as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15) .
That is one thousand years at most that a servant of Christ might experience something called "the outer darkness".
That is one thousand years that some really off the mark born again person may have his name temporarily erased from the book of life (Rev. 3:5).
That is one thousand years that some exceedingly hard cases may find themselves hurt, yet not forever, by the hurt of the second death.
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death." (Rev. 2:11)
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Justification by Faith does not tie God's hands so that He cannot discipline sons of His who need discipline.
Do you think that Gods spirit works in Christians who commit such grievous sins?
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Once we are regenerated we may cause God some trouble.
We may delay Him but we cannot delay Him forever.
We may procrastinate our sanctification. But we cannot stop it altogether.
He will remain faithful to Himself. So says the word of God -
" If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself. " (2 Tim. 2:13)
I assure you that God has a way to give us the incentive to want to cooperate with Him. And if we put Him off in the age of grace - the church age, He will deal with us further in the kingdom age - one thousand years before eternity.
Originally posted by sonshipYour personal situation is of no relevance to this discussion. The issue at hand is whether or not ALL CHRISTIANS ARE PERMANENTLY filled with the Holy Spirit.
[b] Do you believe that the murderer Robert Louis Dear who is a born again Christian and who is saved eternally [according to you and him] has the Holy Spirit?
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I do not know about the case you mention. I know the case of myself. And after thes ...[text shortened]... ches. He who overcomes shall by no means be hurt of the second death." (Rev. 2:11) [/b] [/quote][/b]
So far you have succeeded in providing nothing of substance in your references or explanation.
The questions remains unanswered .. Robert Louis Dear a born again Christians AND A MURDERER, who you claim Gods Spirit permanently.
How is it that this man has Gods Spirit and he commits such a heinous crime?
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Originally posted by Rajk999Your personal situation is of no relevance to this discussion.
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Why no relevance ? You wish to bring the personal relevance of one Robert L. Dear. So my personal experience is not completely without relevancy.
You have already lost these arguments in case you don't know it.
So I won't be full time re-arguing them with the same person in regular cycles of once a month.
The issue at hand is whether or not ALL CHRISTIANS ARE PERMANENTLY filled with the Holy Spirit.
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Using the New Testament usage "filled with the Holy Spirit" either the Greek plethro or plero i would not argue that a Christian is always filled with the Holy Spirit.
What I pointed out is the the Christians HAS the Holy Spirit from the point of regeneration on and forever.
Below this sentence, as I write, I will examine if you did or did not submit, as I asked, a New Testament verse saying God withdrew from a believer the Holy Spirit.
Either you provided such a passage or you did not.
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So far you have succeeded in providing nothing of substance in your references or explanation.
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As I read though your post, I am awaiting the passage I requested. That is the NT passage saying God withdrew from a Christian the Holy Spirit.
Either you were able to find your passage or you were not able.
If you were not able other additional points here are pretty moot.
Where's the beef ?
The questions remains unanswered .. Robert Louis Dear a born again Christians AND A MURDERER, who you claim Gods Spirit permanently.
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In principle, I discussed any and every truly regenerated person's situation.
Back to my request. As I scroll down I am looking for you answer to my request -
Where does the NT say God withdrew the Holy Spirit from one born of the Spirit, a Christian.
You have it - Yes ?
You were unable to provide it ?
Which ?
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How is it that this man has Gods Spirit and he commits such a heinous crime?
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I am now at the end of your post and you didn't supply that verse.
We have a passage saying the Holy Spirit would be with the disciples FOREVER in John 14. .
You have not supplied a verse contradicting this, saying God will take AWAY the Holy Spirit from the disciples.
I can think of NO New Testament passage teaching God will withdraw the Holy Spirit from one who is a believer in Christ. If you find one, let me know.
Case closed.
Originally posted by sonshipYour John 14 reference does not state that Christians will be permanently filled with the Holy Spirit. John 14 says that the Comforter will be with the disciples [in general] forever. Individual Christians' experience will vary.
[b] How is it that this man has Gods Spirit and he commits such a heinous crime?
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I am now at the end of your post and you didn't supply that verse.
We have a passage saying the Holy Spirit would be with the disciples FOREVER in John 14. .
Yo ...[text shortened]... Holy Spirit from one who is a believer in Christ. If you find one, let me know.
Case closed.[/b]
Now the problem is that you believe that YOU Sonship has the ability to determine who is a disciple or follower of Christ, but unfortunately you are not privy to that information. Those who are followers of Christ is known only to Christ and God and THESE ONLY are those who will have Gods Spirit PERMANENTLY.
You mistakenly believe that all Christians have Gods Spirit and are saved eternally. God knows who is saved eternally .. NOT YOU. Mr Robert Dear who is a murderer quite likely despite his claim to be a born again Christian does not possess Gods Spirit.
I dont need provide any reference to prove the obvious. Evil sinful people are not Gods people, they do not possess Gods spirit and will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Only God knows who these people are.
Originally posted by sonshipThe words 'CUT OFF' and 'FALL AWAY', tell of the fate of Christians who once were given the opportunity to serve God and they failed.
[b] How is it that this man has Gods Spirit and he commits such a heinous crime?
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I am now at the end of your post and you didn't supply that verse.
We have a passage saying the Holy Spirit would be with the disciples FOREVER in John 14. .
Yo ...[text shortened]... Holy Spirit from one who is a believer in Christ. If you find one, let me know.
Case closed.[/b]
Here are these verses again:
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Romans 11:22)
Paul to the saints in Rome - if you do not continue in Gods goodness you will be CUT OFF.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6)
Paul to the Hebrews - those who FALL AWAY ... their end is to be burned
Just two references. The same story is told in all the writings of the Apostles.
But CUT OFF and FALL AWAY, for you, means that these Christians still have Gods Spirit permanently.
Originally posted by KellyJayWho first placed their faith in Jesus for salvation?
I'm not sure how you are defining Christian, but I'll say the first was the thief on the cross
next to Jesus when Jesus said this to him.
Luke 23:
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, Dost thou not even fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath ...[text shortened]... gdom. 43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.