Originally posted by sonhouseNo offense, but from my experience--- both in life and in this realm--- the overwhelming majority of atheists I've had interaction with come across with the same clenched fist/anal retentive mid-grade hypertension as the angry-at-all-the-sin-in-the-world evangelicals I've had the pleasure of dealing with, too.
I think this is the wrong question, Why are atheists so angry.
I think it should be Why are atheists so happy?
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyI refer to the agreed reality in which find ourselves. You and I see the same sky, the same colours, feel the same sensations and emotions, experience the human condition in very much the same way, apply our reason as best we can, and yet your conclusion involves the christian god. Mine most emphatically doesn't.
"... but I'm no nearer an understanding than I ever was."
I'd be interested in any particular "givens" on which the two of you "reach different conclusions"?
Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I refer to the agreed reality in which find ourselves. You and I see the same sky, the same colours, feel the same sensations and emotions, experience the human condition in very much the same way, apply our reason as best we can, and yet your conclusion involves the christian god. Mine most emphatically doesn't.
Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I refer to the agreed reality in which find ourselves. You and I see the same sky, the same colours, feel the same sensations and emotions, experience the human condition in very much the same way, apply our reason as best we can, and yet your conclusion involves the christian god. Mine most emphatically doesn't.
Yes, we all "see the same sky, the same colours, feel the same sensations and emotions, experience the human condition in very much the same way..."; yet, the reasoning we apply and the conclusions we reach do often differ. Please see these two
Thread 156911 and Thread 157026 then let's continue our reasoning here. Be nice if your friend could be here, too.
Originally posted by Penguin
Now here, you are getting somewhere.10. Atheists are angry with the unreasonable expectation and crass insensitivity of anyone presuming to pressure them into belief in God-- especially to believing in the Person of the Risen Christ. Why? It's naively intrusive for starters.
Apart from the fact that we are not any more annoyed at b ...[text shortened]... ]
That is obviously a matter of opinion with which atheists would tend to disagree.
Penguin.
This scenario represents the equivalent of asking a person wearing a wet suit and life jacket at the end of a deep water ocean pier to strip naked and then plunge head first into the unknown waters below.
"I can't quite follow the meaning of this analogy to make any comment on it." ---Penguin
Simply an attempted metaphorical portrayal of a human being asked to let go of any protection
or defense in taking Einstein's Leap of Faith or what Sarte described as "a falling upward".
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby"Why Are Atheists So Angry?"
"Why Are Atheists So Angry?"
10. Atheists are angry with the unreasonable expectation and crass insensitivity of anyone presuming to pressure them into belief in God-- especially to believing in the Person of the Risen Christ. Why? It's naively intrusive for starters. This scenario represents the equivalent of asking a person wearing a wet suit and ...[text shortened]... academically received and assimilated. Salvation through faith in Christ then becomes a reality.
11. Atheists are continually angry with themselves as a consequence of having rejected the notion or even the possibility of a supreme universal authority--- initially manifest in their denial of the eternal existence of God. Yet, each atheist playing chess and/or posting to public forums on this site accepts the authority of its terms of service; its moderators; and Russ himself. Each who drives a vehicle also accepts the authority of traffic lights, signs and signals. Each site member who isn't confined to a wheel chair or bedridden accepts the incontrovertible law of gravity (unless they also attempted a mythological wax wing flight to the sun). Continually angry because intelligence and commonsense have become conflicted: accepting the principle of authority in their daily lives while choosing to allow spiritual authority to have become subjectively denied.
"By Rabbi David Wolpe - Huffington Post Added: Friday, 11 March 2011 at 3:21 AM Thanks to Morgan Zee for the link. How harmless is it to post an article about why people should read the bible on a site devoted to religion..."
In the past when I have debated noted atheists -- Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and others -- the audience was heavily weighted toward my opponents. That makes sense. Each of these men -- like Dawkins, Dennett and others -- brings with them a large following. But why seek out a religious site solely to insult religion? I wondered: Why are atheists so angry?
Here are four reasons, none exclusive of the others:
1. Atheists genuinely resent the evil that religion has done. No one can seriously deny that religion has been guilty of wickedness in this world and has provided cover for wickedness. I refer not only to abusers who hide under the cloak of clergy, but religious persecutions, the stifling of speech and dissent, the mistreatment of women -- the crimes are legion. While as a believer I think there is much more to be said about this topic, it is certainly reasonable for people to be angry at religion for its abuses, particularly people who have themselves been victims.
2. They are convinced that religion is a fairy tale made up of whole cloth that impedes science/progress/rational thought. No avalanche of counterexamples, from noted scientists who are believers to the way in which the scientific method has flourished in the monotheistic west (as opposed to say, the non-monotheistic eastern societies) will serve to dissuade. That which is understood to have happened to Galileo is all, apparently, one needs to know.
3. Here is where I make my bid for more obloquy to be visited on my head. There is an arrogant unwillingness to engage with religion's serious thinkers. Too many atheists assume that a couple of insults will substitute for argument. They suffer from the incredulity of those who cannot believe anyone would disagree. It reminds me of the most self-assured of the faithful, who suffer the same intellectual imperialism. "I am right," a statement we all identify with from time to time, becomes "therefore you are stupid for disagreeing." A disagreeable sentiment, to say the least. And a narrow, thoughtless one, to boot.
4. Finally, I will go so far as to say that there is sometimes in the atheist a want of wonder. In a world in which so much is still not understood, in which multiple universes are possible, in which we have not pierced the mystery of consciousness, to discount the supernatural is to lack the openness to mystery that should be a human hallmark. There is so much we do not know. Religious people too should acknowledge this truth. Epistemological humility -- the acknowledgment that we are at the very first baby steps of understanding -- is far wiser than arrogance on either side. After all, we comprehend with our brains, and who knows how limited are our only organs of understanding?
So please, feel free to vituperate, argue and belittle. But understand that the religious dialogue is not advanced by shaken fists and snide asides. To quote the prophet, "Come let us reason together (Isaiah 1:18)." All of us ought to be astonished by our miraculous ability to talk, think, dream and disagree. Our first response to life should be gratitude and wonder that we share this remarkable world so far beyond our poor power to grasp. Now, let the derision begin!" (OP)
http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/601271-why-are-atheists-so-angry
5. Atheists appear to be irritated by those in their periphery who possess a quiet confidence in their biblically informed and diametrically opposed points of view. The innermost being (right lobe of the soul) of a human being who has rejected the possibility that God Is and always has been without beginning or ending endures a continual inner rebellion against God which produces emptiness, darkness and self induced misery. Atheists appear to resent those who by faith alone in Christ alone have become trichotomous human beings with a human spirit which enables them to apprehend scriptural truth, grow in grace, gradually acquire the mind of Christ and share the perfect happiness of God. 'Grace' is a foreign word. (page 1 post)
6. Anger over the relaxed summation of an atheist who groped relentlessly for light and finally changed his mind: "There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way.'" -C.S. Lewis And a reluctant appreciation of Pascal's "There's a hole in the heart of man in the shape of God. If I believe in the Risen Christ and it's just an artful falsehood, there is nothing to lose. If true, then I have everything to gain." (page 3 post)
7. Angry with rejection, i.e., the daily issue of peer acceptance, as if atheism was an abnormal alternative lifestyle. (page 3 post)
Originally posted by SwissGambit
8. Atheists are pissed off because the forum lost good intellectual theists like halitose, huntingbear, and epiphineas, and ended up with RJHinds. 😠(page 3 post)
9. Atheists may become angry in the face of extreme disappointment and loss, adversity and disaster over the stern fact of their unwelcome and dysfunctional solitary status: bereft of stabilizing spiritual principles or an omniscient and omnipotent supernatural being to look to for deliverance. Curiously, this very vacuum leads to a mindset which is uncertain and reactive and fearful... and, unknowingly, angry with God Himself for having creating a world in which they are now unable to cope. (page 4 post)
10. Atheists are angry with the unreasonable expectation and crass insensitivity of anyone presuming to pressure them into belief in God-- especially to believing in the Person of the Risen Christ. Why? It's naively intrusive for starters. This scenario represents the equivalent of asking a person wearing a wet suit and life jacket at the end of a deep water ocean pier to strip naked and then plunge head first into the unknown waters below. Would that same person disavow faith in Christ if asked to do so by an atheist? Hell, no! Change of mind is an individualized process which may include any of several steps: curiosity plus doubt plus positive interest in learning more about this thing called "God's Grace Gift" plus positive volition toward the information once its been academically received and assimilated. Salvation through faith in Christ then becomes a reality. (page 4 post)
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"By Rabbi David Wolpe - Huffington Post Added: Friday, 11 March 2011 at 3:21 AM Thanks to Morgan Zee for the link. How harmless is it to post an article about why people should read the bible on a site devoted to religion..."
In the past when I have debated noted atheists -- Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris and others -- the audience was heavily weig ...[text shortened]... derision begin!" (OP)
http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/601271-why-are-atheists-so-angry
1. Atheists genuinely resent the evil that religion has done.
Yes, evil done using religion as a justification makes us angry, although possibly no more than evil done for any other reason. 1 point
2. They are convinced that religion is a fairy tale made up of whole cloth that impedes science/progress/rational thought.
Yes, and it's not just Galileo. We see this happening all the time. 1 point
3. Here is where I make my bid for more obloquy to be visited on my head. There is an arrogant unwillingness to engage with religion's serious thinkers.
No. You need some evidence for this. Name some of these serious thinkers who the likes of Dawkins, Dennet, Harris and Hitchins have refused to engage with. 0 points
4. Finally, I will go so far as to say that there is sometimes in the atheist a want of wonder.
No. You got to be kidding me right? Science is full of wonder. 0 points
Now your additions
5. Atheists appear to be irritated by those in their periphery who possess a quiet confidence in their biblically informed and diametrically opposed points of view.
No. I don't think this particularly makes us angry. Maybe irritated if they try to convince us of the truth of their superstitions 1/2 point
6. Anger over the relaxed summation of an atheist who groped relentlessly for light and finally changed his mind
No. Bemusement maybe, but certainly not anger. 0 points
7. Angry with rejection, i.e., the daily issue of peer acceptance, as if atheism was an abnormal alternative lifestyle.
No, I certainly don't feel rejected. 0 points
Originally posted by SwissGambit
8. Atheists are pissed off because the forum lost good intellectual theists like halitose, huntingbear, and epiphineas, and ended up with RJHinds.
No. This was just SG poking fun. 0 points
9. Atheists may become angry in the face of extreme disappointment and loss, adversity and disaster over the stern fact of their unwelcome and dysfunctional solitary status: bereft of stabilizing spiritual principles or an omniscient and omnipotent supernatural being to look to for deliverance.
No. We all deal with such things in our own way but the fact that there is no such being does not make us angry in such situations (I have recently suffered such lose, as we all do at some point in our lives, and anger was not an emotion that I felt) 0 points
10. Atheists are angry with the unreasonable expectation and crass insensitivity of anyone presuming to pressure them into belief in God-- especially to believing in the Person of the Risen Christ.
Yes, you got one! If people kept their religion to themselves, we would not be angry about it. 1 point
11. Atheists are continually angry with themselves as a consequence of having rejected the notion or even the possibility of a supreme universal authority--- initially manifest in their denial of the eternal existence of God.
No. This one does not make any sense at all. 0 points
So I think that makes 3.5 out of 10 (I am not counting Swiss Gambit's contribution). And only 1.5 of those are your own. I thought we might have been getting somewhere a page or so back. Seems I was wrong.
Penguin
Originally posted by PenguinGood job... "3.5" not a bad start for a beginner. Your turn to contribute:1. Atheists genuinely resent the evil that religion has done.
Yes, evil done using religion as a justification makes us angry, although possibly no more than evil done for any other reason. [b]1 point
[quote]2. They are convinced that religion is a fairy tale made up of whole cloth that impedes science/progress/rational thought.[/quote ...[text shortened]... I thought we might have been getting somewhere a page or so back. Seems I was wrong.
Penguin[/b]
12.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyBut you have been on these forums for several years I believe so you have had plenty of time to hear about and discuss what actually make us 'angry'. So I don't think 3.5 is really very good. Of the 6 contributions that actually came from you, there are only 1.5 points.
Good job... "3.5" not a bad start for a beginner. Your turn to contribute:
12.
12. Exactly the same things that make everyone else angry.
To give two examples,
If you saw your tax dollars going to group's whose reason d'etra was to spread a doctrine that was fundamentally at opposition to many of your core values, don't you think you would be a little narked?
If you had to feign belief in something you considered to be a falsehood in order to get your child into a state-funded school or you found that your child was being taught as true a religion other than the one you believed in, in a state-funded school, that would annoy you wouldn't it?
So insummary, the things that make atheists angry are the same things that make theists angry
--- Penguin
Originally posted by Penguin12. Exactly the same things that make everyone else angry.
But you have been on these forums for several years I believe so you have had plenty of time to hear about and discuss what actually make us 'angry'. So I don't think 3.5 is really very good. Of the 6 contributions that actually came from you, there are only 1.5 points.
[b]12. Exactly the same things that make everyone else angry.
To give two exam ...[text shortened]... hings that make atheists angry are the same things that make theists angry
--- Penguin[/b]
If this Talking Point is true, why then are some atheists and theists still arguing rather than commiserating on this forum?
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyBecause people get annoyed by other people with a different world view trying
[b]12. Exactly the same things that make everyone else angry.
If this Talking Point is true, why then are some atheists and theists still arguing rather than commiserating on this forum?[/b]
to change the world according to that world view.
Theists and atheists have different world views.
Originally posted by googlefudgeYour next step is to learn that the atheist worldview is wrong.
Because people get annoyed by other people with a different world view trying
to change the world according to that world view.
Theists and atheists have different world views.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/atheism-irrational
Originally posted by googlefudgeThis is exactly it, and put far more succinctly than I would have.
Because people get annoyed by other people with a different world view trying
to change the world according to that world view.
Theists and atheists have different world views.
I would also however add that although it is true that Atheists and Theists have different world-views, so do Christians and Sikhs, Sikhs and Buddhists, Buddhists and Scientologists, Scientologists and Muslims, Muslims and Hindus, Hindus and Jews, etc. etc. etc.
If any one of those groups started trying to impose their world-view on another, as does occasionally happen, the other group would get angry. It's as simple as that.
Penguin.