Why? How? - ultimate truth

Originally posted by knightmeister
I agree that in a way logic is partially independent of the universe becasue it can twist the laws of the universe and become a closed system of sorts. BUT....the system itself is modelled on the great system we see around us and derived from the model the universe offers The universe is the original piece of music from which all other pieces are conci ...[text shortened]... as to be derived form the universe - where else could it come from? Non physical consciousness?

Your claim is that logic derives from our physical laws. So let's suppose we have a multiverse consisting of many different universes, each with different physical laws. Now, according to you, we might expect logic to be different between these universes since their physical laws differ. Basically, you are saying that principles of correct reasoning could differ between the universes because their physical laws differ. Well, I'll give you the opportunity to explain via examples why you think this way. For instance, let's consider modus ponens (MP), a valid form of inference in our universe:

1. If P, then Q.
2. P.
3. Therefore, Q.

Your claim is that although this is a valid form in our universe, there are other possible universes where this would not be valid because their hypothetical physical laws are so different from ours. So, explain why this is so, and please provide an example of a hypothetical universe in which the physical laws make MP no longer valid or truth-preserving.

I think the above will make it more clear why you are so completely full of sh@t here. If our universe were physically different, that might change the truth values of propositions like P and Q, but it would not change the principles of correct reasoning. I'm actually starting to fear for your sanity a bit, given that your third post from the top of page 6 seems to indicate that you think it is possible for logically impossible concepts to be instantiated. 😵

Originally posted by LemonJello
Your claim is that logic derives from our physical laws. So let's suppose we have a multiverse consisting of many different universes, each with different physical laws. Now, according to you, we might expect logic to be different between these universes since their physical laws differ. Basically, you are saying that principles of correct reasoning co ...[text shortened]... icate that you think it is possible for logically impossible concepts to be instantiated. 😵

Notice that you assume that it would be logical that other universes may have different physical laws to ours. Have you considered that another universe might have no physical laws at all ? Logic only works if you have a system of some sort with "laws" , we only assume a universe that has no such laws is illogical because it would be so different from ours. It would be virtually unimaginable. Known Logic could not apply there.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Notice that you assume that it would be logical that other universes may have different physical laws to ours. Have you considered that another universe might have no physical laws at all ? Logic only works if you have a system of some sort with "laws" , we only assume a universe that has no such laws is illogical because it would be so different from ours. It would be virtually unimaginable. Known Logic could not apply there.

Notice that you assume that it would be logical that other universes may have different physical laws to ours.

I'm not sure what you mean here by "logical". But of course I think it is logically possible for there to be other universes with different physical laws than our own. Do you understand the difference between logical possibility and nomological possibility (as it would relate to the nomological in our universe)?

Have you considered that another universe might have no physical laws at all ? Logic only works if you have a system of some sort with "laws" , we only assume a universe that has no such laws is illogical because it would be so different from ours. It would be virtually unimaginable. Known Logic could not apply there.

In such a universe, I doubt beings such as ourselves would ever come to exist, and if we were somehow transported there I doubt we would survive. That aside, all you can show with this line of thinking is the following. In such a universe, one would not be able reliably to use inductive reasoning to work from particulars to general physical laws (because there are physical laws). In such a universe, it would be virtually meaningless to say this or that is nomological. So inductive principles would not be applicable in that sense. But how does that render logic generally void, and what does that have to do at all with, say, deductive reasoning? For someone who purports to know so much about logic, it's like you don't even understand that inductive logic is not the only type of logic. Please explain how modus ponens would be no longer valid in such a universe.

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]Notice that you assume that it would be logical that other universes may have different physical laws to ours.

I'm not sure what you mean here by "logical". But of course I think it is logically possible for there to be other universes with different physical laws than our own. Do you understand the difference between logical possibility and n ...[text shortened]... gic. Please explain how modus ponens would be no longer valid in such a universe.[/b]

It's impossible because we can only conceive of universes that are in some way modellled on our own or distortions of our own. The question is where does logic come from and what is it modelled on?

It cannot come from anywhere else than the universe we live in unless we speculate somethhing independent of the universe.

Originally posted by LemonJello
(because there are physical laws).

Oops, I meant for there to be a "no" in there. The supposition was that the universe had no physical laws.

Originally posted by knightmeister
It's impossible because we can only conceive of universes that are in some way modellled on our own or distortions of our own. The question is where does logic come from and what is it modelled on?

It cannot come from anywhere else than the universe we live in unless we speculate somethhing independent of the universe.

I don't even know what you are talking about anymore. I would just like to see you actually back up your claims, including the claims "the only reason we have logic is because the universe behaves consistently . Logic is based on probability" and then later "There is no logic - only overwhelming probability based on observation." I mean, it's clear you don't have even an elementary familiarity with logic, and yet you feel like making broad sweeping claims about logic.

Beyond that, I don't even understand what you are asking. "Where does logic come from and what is it modelled on?" I mean, what is this you are asking? For example, anyone with an elementary understanding of logic knows the following material conditional is true: If 3 is an even number, then 3 is an odd number. Where does this come from, knightmeister, and what is it modeled on?

Originally posted by LemonJello
I don't even know what you are talking about anymore. I would just like to see you actually back up your claims, including the claims "the only reason we have logic is because the universe behaves consistently . Logic is based on probability" and then later "There is no logic - only overwhelming probability based on observation." I mean, it's clear you ...[text shortened]... odd number[/i]. Where does this come from, knightmeister, and what is it modeled on?

You don't say where logic comes from or what it is modelled on or how it developed ---but --you think it bizarre that I ask the question?

Does logic come from nowhere? Is it a magical spaghetti monster that drifts in from the ether? It must have originated somehow. If from men's minds then how and why?

Originally posted by knightmeister
You don't say where logic comes from or what it is modelled on or how it developed ---but --you think it bizarre that I ask the question?

Does logic come from nowhere? Is it a magical spaghetti monster that drifts in from the ether? It must have originated somehow. If from men's minds then how and why?

Well, I'm not satisfied I understand your question.

Now, getting back to what I was talking about, you have made some significant claims about the nature of logic, and I want to know why we should take you seriously. I think you are probably confusing logic itself with instances in which we employ inductive logic in practice.

Originally posted by LemonJello
Well, I'm not satisfied I understand your question.

Now, getting back to what I was talking about, you have made some significant claims about the nature of logic, and I want to know why we should take you seriously. I think you are probably confusing logic itself with instances in which we employ inductive logic in practice.

I don't understand why you don't understand the question

Originally posted by LemonJello
Well, I'm not satisfied I understand your question.

Now, getting back to what I was talking about, you have made some significant claims about the nature of logic, and I want to know why we should take you seriously. I think you are probably confusing logic itself with instances in which we employ inductive logic in practice.

It's difficult to follow both of your ramblings, but I think I understand his question to you.

In your opinion:
1. What is logic?
2. What is logic based upon--- if anything?
3. Where does logic come from?

Even if I have his inquiries wrong, I'm curious to see your responses to the questions I have put to you.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
It's difficult to follow both of your ramblings, but I think I understand his question to you.

In your opinion:
1. What is logic?
2. What is logic based upon--- if anything?
3. Where does logic come from?

Even if I have his inquiries wrong, I'm curious to see your responses to the questions I have put to you.

Freaky you have probably summed it up well. Lemon and whitey have been suggesting that logic is totally independent of the universe to which I felt justified in asking how could that be. If it doesn't derive from the universe what on earth does it derive from?

Originally posted by knightmeister
... logic is totally independent of the universe to which I felt justified in asking how could that be. If it doesn't derive from the universe what on earth does it derive from?

I would start by looking at the most basic logical assertion (A = A) and
the most basic logical contradiction (A = ~A). I don't see how these
abstract concepts rely on the existence of our particular universe (though,
of course the expression of these concepts requires intelligent beings).

The idea that some universe exists where A = ~A also seems silly. Of
course, neither side can argue for or against its existence because such
the structure of such arguments would hinge on the very logic that the
conclusion seeks to debunk.

I'm not sure that these concepts 'derive' from anything. I'm inclined to
believe that they are immutable -- eternally existing and unchangeable --
though I lack the metaphysical wherewithal to justify that.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
I would start by looking at the most basic logical assertion (A = A) and
the most basic logical contradiction (A = ~A). I don't see how these
abstract concepts rely on the existence of our particular universe (though,
of course the expression of these concepts requires intelligent beings).

The idea that some universe exists where A = ~A also se nd unchangeable --
though I lack the metaphysical wherewithal to justify that.

Nemesio

I'm glad to hear you say logic is immutable and eternal . I would be inclined to agree at the end of the day. However , whitey and lemon can afford no such concepts I'm sure as they would baulk at them intuitively as smacking of God somehow.

So how do you think they claim that logic is separate and independent of the universe somehow without recourse to these ideas? It seems contradictory to me. Surely it's them you should be taking to task not me.

Originally posted by knightmeister
It must have originated somehow.

Must God have originated somehow?

Originally posted by knightmeister


So how do you think they claim that logic is separate and independent of the universe somehow without recourse to these ideas?

The laws of logic are simply abstract representations of the actual ways in which actual facts actually relate to each other. In this view, they are an emergent phenomenon arising from the nature of facts. Thus the more fruitful question to investigate is whether the nature of facts would be the same in all universes; that is, whether the nature of facts in general (as opposed to the content of specific facts) is dependent upon the particular universe which those facts describe.

I don't think there is any good reason to deny that the nature of facts would be the same in another universe (after all, a fact is simply that which is the case, and another universe is simply another set of things that are the case), and thus I don't think there is a good reason to deny that the laws of logic would be the same in another universe.