Spirituality
08 Jul 11
09 Jul 11
1 edit
Originally posted by JS357Well, maybe not an outcome but perhaps a process. Seems to me you could achieve the same goals without reference to a god. It's all internal in any case.
I don't know about lower case gods but the upper case one as I was taught about was said to be eternally complete (that is, perfect) and unchanging and so doesn't "get" anything out of any temporal human event. So if there is any getting, it's by the worshipers. The closest analogy I can think of is how I get something out of thinking about the good things my ...[text shortened]... , which gives me a positive attitude. I don't do it to "get" that, but it's an outcome.
My condolences on the loss of your parents, they sound like fine people.
09 Jul 11
Originally posted by avalanchethecatit seems to me to be required as an expression of love. For example, JS357 made the point that there seems nothing that one can give to God, because he requires nothing, however, there is something that the adherent can do to demonstrate that he or she reciprocates that love. Paul states, 'we love God because he loved us first'.
JS357s post didn't explain why god requires worship.
09 Jul 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIs worship required or isn't it? You say it's required as an expression of love, then you say god requires nothing. Please clarify.
it seems to me to be required as an expression of love. For example, JS357 made the point that there seems nothing that one can give to God, because he requires nothing, however, there is something that the adherent can do to demonstrate that he or she reciprocates that love. Paul states, 'we love God because he loved us first'.
09 Jul 11
Originally posted by avalanchethecatThe God of truth is "pleased" no matter what any of His creatures do/don't do; His pleasure is not dependent upon our action. When we say that He is pleased, it is in language of accommodation, projecting upon Him human characteristics and/or experiences that, while He does not possess, are the best way of describing the dynamic.
Your version of god can presumably see through my eyes and feel what I am feeling anyway, and I'm delighted if he gets pleasure from my emotional state at any time. I still don't see why he would want me to drop to my knees and 'praise' god or jesus or the holy spirit etc.
Thinking in terms of machinery or protocol, there is only a right way to do a right thing. There is no wrong way of doing a right thing, nor is there a right way to do a wrong thing. The machine only works when following the 'right way.' Creation follows the pattern of its Creator and 'works' only when following the protocol of its Creator.
Man is both part of that creation (having been formed from it) as well as from outside of the creation (having the Spirit of God breathed into him at the moment of his creation). As such, to ensure the success of his life--- to ensure his full measure of pleasure and joy--- man necessarily is beholden to follow the dictates of both realms, as appropriate. We know full well what happens on the physical level when man attempts to live outside of the known way of life. Too, we have been made aware of what happens when man attempts to live out of touch with the reality of the spiritual side of life: disaster.
While we cannot adequately or even completely accurately describe God's relational dynamic with His creatures, He has provided us with emotion to allow us to emulate aspects of the same. No one wants to see their child do something which would harm himself on the physical level; we would all prefer to see them figure out the rules of the world and act accordingly. Conversely, no one wants to go through the mental anguish of being rejected by their child--- even though we would universally agree that our children's decisions need to be their own, no matter how they choose.
If we had our choice, we would want our children to accept all of the goodness and purity our love for them provides. Similarly, God would have all of His creatures benefit from their connection to the one perfect thing in all of creation: Him.
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09 Jul 11
Originally posted by avalanchethecatI need to exlpain where I am coming from. I think I said God didn't want for anything because that was the word -- want -- that was at issue. If the word is 'require' it's a little different, I suppose. 'Require' might mean 'make necessary for some quid pro quo' like salvation, which I imagine God, if existent, *could* do. That would be in the same manner as 'requiring' a released ball to fall to the ground -- setting up a law of nature -- except that God is giving humans the power to fulfill, or not, the requirement of worship, with a contingent consequence. Whether God would, if existent, require worship for some quid pro quo, is another question. I personally think God would be a universalist, meaning any being God creates that can be saved, reunited with God, etc., is saved eventually. I can't imagine why God would care about worship except for the kind of worship that is expressed through the doing of good works. I also picked up somewhere along the way the idea that doing good works is the highest form of worship.
JS357s post didn't explain why god requires worship.
I am only describing the nature of the God I was taught about and have sort of studied along those lines since then. Basically these question like you ask are good ones but the answer is to refine your characterization of God. A refined characterization of God may have no traction at all with a theist who believes differently, but that's not your problem. I believe we can have good conversations about the character of God without staking out a position on whether that particular characterization of God exists, just as we can discuss the character of Odysseus. However I think someone else's characterization of God is fair game for criticism if they push that characterization on you. Including mine if I do that. All I want to do is offer an alternative characterization that might make more sense than the one whose existence you reject. I too, reject that characterization.
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09 Jul 11
Originally posted by FreakyKBHThat is a characterization of God that I can largely accept as a baseline for further thought. The recognition that our descriptive powers are limited is essential, and that limitation applies to any characterization.
The God of truth is "pleased" no matter what any of His creatures do/don't do; His pleasure is not dependent upon our action. When we say that He is pleased, it is in language of accommodation, projecting upon Him human characteristics and/or experiences that, while He does not possess, are the best way of describing the dynamic.
Thinking in terms of m ...[text shortened]... eatures benefit from their connection to the one perfect thing in all of creation: Him.
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09 Jul 11
Originally posted by sonhouseThank you. I'm now at an age between theirs when they died, and I respect them all the more.
Well, maybe not an outcome but perhaps a process. Seems to me you could achieve the same goals without reference to a god. It's all internal in any case.
My condolences on the loss of your parents, they sound like fine people.
10 Jul 11
4 edits
Originally posted by Soothfast===============================
Of course God is "perfect," because it's a deity's prerogative to define the meaning of the word. Cue the booming voice:
GOD: "Perfect is what I am and everyone else is not. Ho ho ho."
Man: "Bollocks!"
GOD: "Prove otherwise."
Man: "The integer 1."
GOD: "Perfect is what I am and everyone else is not. Ho ho ho."
===============================
Don't you think you are loosely and slanderously putting words in the mouth of God to portray your own libelous contempt for God?
If God did not want man to be like Himself why did He create man in His own image?
"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over ...
And God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." (See Genesis 1:26,27)
God said that about no other of the creaturely lives mentioned in Genesis. Don't you think this is a window into the heart of God ? I do. It appears that instead of a great descrepancy between Himself and man, God desires a great correspondence.
Where's the attitude "Perfect is what I am and everyone else is not. Ho ho ho." ?
"You therefore shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matt. 5:48)
Let's not talk about what is. Let's talk about God's heart's desire. The begetting "Father" has a heart that His life would be passed on to those begotten by Him - Because the Father is perfect, the children also shall be perfect.
Isn't that God's heart? In His salvation does God seek to bring the saved into this perfection ?
"Even as He chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, Predestinating us to sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ..." (Eph. 1:4,5)
Where is the laughing of a mocking Creator that He is perfect and man delightfully is not ? I see no belly laughs of God that man remain in imperfection.
Rather what I see is that "before the foundation of the world" it was God's "good pleasure" that He have sons (implied in the word "sonship" ) who are holy and without blemish before Him in love.
Before the foundation of the world means before the creation of the universe. Before the creation of the universe, before God created anything, He had on His heart to have SONS in perfection, without blemish, without spot, holy, glorious and in love with Him.
And in history we see a model of what that looks like. His name is Jesus Christ as an Elder Brother, Savior, Lord, Standard Model, and Prototype of what God desired in man before the foundation of the world, ie. before the creation of the universe.
Don't make a caricature of His attitude.
10 Jul 11
Originally posted by jaywillYou are obsessing over what is all internal to our brains, the god gene puts a blob of gray matter in our heads that produces the religion effect. It's all in our brains and nowhere else. Science has already shown that. You make a magnetic stimulation of that place in the brain and you instantly feel entities around you, most people think that is the presence of god.
[b]===============================
GOD: "Perfect is what I am and everyone else is not. Ho ho ho."
===============================
Don't you think you are loosely and slanderously putting words in the mouth of God to portray your own libelous contempt for God?
If God did not want man to be like Himself why did He create man in His o ...[text shortened]... ion of the universe.
Don't make a caricature of His attitude.[/b]
It's too bad so many people die because of a blob in the brain that makes us think things are there when they are not.
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10 Jul 11
Originally posted by jaywillI don't get it. It's like one of you says Odysseus was a boor and the other says no, Aeneas wasn't like that. Obviously you are not talking about the same entity you both call God.
[b]===============================
GOD: "Perfect is what I am and everyone else is not. Ho ho ho."
===============================
Don't you think you are loosely and slanderously putting words in the mouth of God to portray your own libelous contempt for God?
If God did not want man to be like Himself why did He create man in His o ...[text shortened]... ion of the universe.
Don't make a caricature of His attitude.[/b]
10 Jul 11
Originally posted by sonhouse=====================================
You are obsessing over what is all internal to our brains, the god gene puts a blob of gray matter in our heads that produces the religion effect. It's all in our brains and nowhere else. Science has already shown that. You make a magnetic stimulation of that place in the brain and you instantly feel entities around you, most people think that is the presen ...[text shortened]... ple die because of a blob in the brain that makes us think things are there when they are not.
It's all in our brains and nowhere else. Science has already shown that. You make a magnetic stimulation of that place in the brain and you instantly feel entities around you, most people think that is the presence of god.
============================================
As the Christian grows he learns that God will lead him through experiences where the "presence" of God is not so evident. This is like learning to fly a plane with low visibility. It you cannot see anything but clouds, you have to learn to fly by the radar.
Trust in God grows deeper when God leads you though experiences where His faithfulness is manifested in spite of a sense of "presence". The Christian learns that the "feel" of God is not the only thing the believer must depend on.
And even if a magnet over a certain portion of the brain produces a "feeling" of divine presence, that in itself is not proof that God does not exist.
With as much logic you could argue that masterbating proves that the opposite sex does not exist.
Besides, I don't know what glob gene in the mind of Micah the prophet allowed him to predict that the Christ would be born in Bethlehem some 500 years before the event.