Witness Lee's Local Church Cult

Originally posted by RJHinds

I believe Witness Lee is teaching truth mixed with error. That was the way that old serpent, the Devil, deceived Eve. Perhaps Witness Lee is indwelt with the spirit of the Devil.

Originally posted by sonship

I believe Witness Lee is teaching truth mixed with error. That was the way that old serpent, the Devil, deceived Eve. Perhaps Witness Lee is indwelt with the spirit of the Devil.

By cherry picking some statements out of context and showing how some CREED gets knocked, you got convinced of that.

You have not shown what the error is ...[text shortened]... e verses say even if it makes some systematic creed enthusiasts shift nervously in their chairs.

Originally posted by RJHinds

I believe Mr. Lee is the one doing the cherry picking of verses out of context to come up with his unorthodox interpretations that are heretical according the the early Church fathers.

Mr. PITTS. Mr. Speaker, a little over four years ago my esteemed colleague from New Jersey, the honorable CHRIS SMITH, rose in this chamber to bring due attention to one of the great Christians of the twentieth century— the noted Chinese teacher and church-planter, Watchman Nee. Today, I rise to complete the circle on this compelling story by honoring Watchman Nee’s closest co-worker, Witness Lee. Together they labored tirelessly in China from 1932 until the conquest of mainland China by the Communist Red Army under Mao Tse Tung in 1949. Today, the story of Watchman Nee is somewhat well known, given his numerous writings that have become Christian classics, such as The Normal Christian Life and Sit, Walk, Stand. Capping his inspirational biography was his martyrdom in a Chinese labor farm in 1972.

Witness Lee’s story is less known in the West but is in no way less significant. Although Nee was the clear leader when they labored together in China, it was left to Witness Lee, to preserve and continue their work outside of China and to spread it far beyond the Chinese-speaking world. When it became apparent in 1949 that the Communists would prevail in China, Watchman Nee insisted that Witness Lee emigrate to carry on their work in Taiwan and throughout the Far East. Lee agreed. Subsequent developments not only validated Nee’s insight (he was imprisoned shortly thereafter, and the churches raised up under his and Lee’s ministry were forced underground), but also confirmed that their message and ministry had the potential to reach far beyond China.

Witness Lee did not confine his work to Asia. In 1962 he came to North America and began to minister from Los Angeles, where he established Living Stream Ministry, the publisher of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee in English and over fifty other languages. Witness Lee’s speaking and writing continued to emphasize ‘‘Christ as life’’ and God’s desire to ‘‘build His church’’ on the basis of the oneness of God’s people, rather than on any ethnic or cultural differences. This was the same message that he had learned from his spiritual mentor, Watchman Nee. Since the early 1960s the spread of the local churches under Lee’s ministry throughout the North and South America, Europe, and Africa has been remarkable. There are more than 4,000 churches and 400,000 believers meeting on every inhabited continent, including 200 churches and several thousand believers in Russia and the Russian speaking world.

Whereas, I am merely trying to keep my interpretation within orthodox Christian thinking.

New American Standard Bible
And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

King James Bible
And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

I have proved that Mr. Lee will say whatever people will let him get away with and "revel in the nonsense of it all" as his student observed.

CRI’s reassessment was the result of an extensive primary research project that spanned six years and involved direct dialogue with representatives of Living Stream Ministry (the publisher of the writings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee) and the local churches. The main series of articles in the Journal, written by Editor-in-Chief Elliot Miller, examined the teachings of Witness Lee and the local churches in light of criticisms published on the Internet in an open letter in 2007.2 The open letter consisted primarily of a call to Living Stream Ministry and those in the local churches to repent of teachings expressed in a series of isolated excerpts from the extensive ministry of Witness Lee. Elliot Miller’s articles contextualized the quotes, explained the theological concepts behind them, and showed how the open letter created a distorted perception of Witness Lee’s teaching.

Originally posted by sonship

I believe Mr. Lee is the one doing the cherry picking of verses out of context to come up with his unorthodox interpretations that are heretical according the the early Church fathers.

Thousands of messages over decades of planting churches and you probably have never heard [b]one complete message by Witness Lee.

I bet ...[text shortened]... , can be studied.

http://www.contendingforthefaith.org/responses/Geisler-Rhodes/index.html[/b]

Originally posted by RJHinds

Well, you would win all your bets.

However, You haven't denied that what I quoted from the internet was not what Witness Lee wrote. In fact, you tried to defend those heretical statements.

I can see why many people that do not know the Trinity Doctrine very well would be fooled by Witness Lee's teaching on the Trinity. I don't see much difference in his teaching than that of the Oneness Pentecostals.

T.D. Jakes Embraces Doctrine of the Trinity, Moves Away from 'Oneness' View

Southern Baptist leaders applauded Jakes' transformation while also saying Jakes isn't fully where he should be on that and other issues.

"It is encouraging to see T.D. Jakes moving away from the heresy of modalism," said Malcolm B. Yarnell III, director of the Center for Theological Research at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. "However, we should pray for him and exhort him privately and publicly to move into biblical orthodoxy without equivocation.

We believe that the Holy Bible is the complete divine revelation verbally inspired by the Holy Spirit.

We believe that God is the only one Triune God-the Father, the Son, and the Spirit-co-existing equally from eternity to eternity.

E. All Three Exist at the Same Time

The Father, Son, and Spirit all exist at the same time.

Notice John 14:16-17: “And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; even the Spirit of truth.” In these two verses we have the Son praying to the Father that the Father would send the Spirit. Hence, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all present at the same time.

In Ephesians 3:14-17 Paul says that he will pray the Father to grant us to be strengthened by His Spirit in our inner man that Christ may make His home in our hearts. In this passage we have the Father, the Spirit, and Christ the Son. All exist at the same time. The Bible does not say that the Father existed for a certain period of time and then the Son came; that after a certain period of time the Son no longer existed and was replaced by the Spirit. There is not a verse that says this. The Bible in this passage indicates that the Father listens to the prayer, the Spirit will strengthen the saints, and the Son, Christ, will make His home in their hearts. Here again, it is clear that all Three exist at the same time.

Second Corinthians 13:14 says, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.” Here are mentioned the grace of Christ the Son, the love of God the Father, and the fellowship or communion of the Holy Spirit. All Three are present at the same time.

D. All Three Are Eternal

Some of the rumors and accusations claim that we do not believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are eternal. I do not know where the critics and accusers get such a thought. We want to declare to all that, in accordance with the Bible, we believe that the Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Spirit also is eternal. We believe this and declare it because the Bible tells us so.
1. The Father Is Eternal

Isaiah 9:6 has the term the “everlasting Father.” The literal translation of the Hebrew phrase here is “Father of eternity” or “eternal Father.” Hence, the Father is eternal.
2. The Son Is Eternal

The Son also is eternal. Hebrews 1:12 says of the Son, “Thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.” Hebrews 7:3 says that He has no beginning of days nor end of life, meaning that He is eternal. Eternal is that which has no beginning or ending. This is why a circle rather than a straight line is a sign of the eternal God. He has no beginning and no ending.
3. The Spirit Is Eternal

The Spirit also is eternal, for Hebrews 9:14 speaks of “the eternal Spirit.” Therefore, let everyone know that in accordance with the Bible, we declare that all Three, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, are eternal.

Southern Baptist leaders applauded Jakes' transformation while also saying Jakes isn't fully where he should be on that and other issues.

Originally posted by RJHinds

Jakes stated he wants to have "dual affiliations" with both Oneness and Trinitarian churches.

This is the goal behind his equivocation, and he relies on unique terminology to enable his dual theology.

Although stating he is willing to use "persons" to describe the Trinity, he is also clear he would prefer not to do so.

(There have been orthodox theologians who also registered difficulty with the term "person," but typically they object to modernist meanings attached to the term, meanings different from the classical Christian understanding. Jakes, however, is rejecting the term not because it has been misunderstood but because it is offensive to Oneness Pentecostals, whom he deems Christian.)

Instead of using the term "persons," Jakes has long confessed he believes the "one God" is "eternally existing in three manifestations: Father, Son and Holy Spirit" (see Potter's House Belief Statement at

Originally posted by RJHinds

bb. The Church Being the Pillar
of the Truth

In the New Testament we are also told that the whole church is the pillar. First Timothy 3:15 says, "But if I delay, that you may know how one ought to conduct himself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth." It is difficult to understand the word truth in this verse. Some say that truth means doctrine. Although this is correct, it is inadequate. In Greek, the word truth denotes something real and solid. Hence, truth means reality. However, truth is not simply a solid reality, but also the expression of this reality. Truth is not vain doctrine; it is the expression of reality, doctrine constituted with reality and conveying that reality. The church is the pillar bearing the truth, that is, bearing the expression of the reality.

The reality borne by the church is revealed in l Timothy 3:16: "And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness, who was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory." The truth in verse 15, the expression of the reality, is the mystery of godliness in verse 16. The mystery of godliness is God manifested in the flesh. When Christ was on earth, He was God manifested in the flesh. Outwardly, He was a man in the flesh; inwardly, in actuality and in reality, He was God. God in His reality was manifested in the man Jesus. God was reality, and Jesus as a man in the flesh was the manifestation of God. This is the very truth mentioned in verse 15, and this is the mystery of godliness. Godliness means God-likeness. The mystery of godliness is the mystery of God-likeness. When Jesus lived on earth as a man in the flesh, the people who beheld Him saw in Him the likeness of God. Although He was a man, He expressed God. This God-likeness was a mystery. The mystery of godliness must be continued in the church today.

Cont. with 1 Timothy 3:16

The church is the continuation of the mystery of godliness. In message eighty-six we saw that Christians have a mysterious part in their being. In principle, the whole church should be a mystery. If some unbelievers come into our meetings and survey the situation, they will not be able to understand it. Although we consider ourselves common and simple, the unbelievers will say, "What is this? What attracts them to these meetings? There is no entertainment or outstanding speaker. Who are these people? They seem to be neither modern nor old-fashioned. We cannot say what kind of people they are." The reason for this is that we are mysterious. Do not think that I am referring to our outward appearance. I am referring to something of God manifested in us. Because this is real yet invisible, it is difficult to define. If the church is merely pure, clean, gentle, humble, and holy, we have missed the mark. The church must be the continuation of the manifestation of God in the flesh. To some of our critics, the continuation of the manifestation of God in the church is a form of evolution into God. To accuse us of teaching evolution is a slander to us and a blasphemy to the Lord. The proper church life is a continuation of the manifestation of God in the flesh. This manifestation is the truth held by the church as the pillar. If as the church we hold this testimony, we shall be able to say that we are the continuation of the mystery of godliness.

We do not want to express our own holiness or anything of ourselves. We want only to express our God and to see Him manifested in our flesh. We admit that we are still flesh, but the very God who lives in our spirit will be manifested, expressed, in our flesh. This manifestation must not merely be individual, but corporate. The proper church life is the corporate manifestation of God in the flesh.

Cont.

The only way the church can be the corporate expression of God in the flesh is by transformation. Everyone in the church must be transformed. Occasionally we refer to the older brothers or to the younger brothers. However, in the church we should not think of some as older ones and of others as younger, for we all are being transformed. Although we may not yet be fully transformed, we are at least in the process of transformation. Forget your age and concentrate upon the fact that you are in the process of transformation. If I still think of myself as a Chinese, I am finished. In the church there is neither old nor young, Chinese nor American, Jew nor Greek (Col. 3:11). In the church we are being changed by having Christ added into us. You should not be an old brother or a young brother, but a brother into whom Christ is being added daily. The older ones may need to remind the younger ones not to call them older brothers, and the younger ones may need to ask the older ones not to speak of them as young brothers. Furthermore, we should not refer to some brothers as "Yankees" and to others as Southerners. There are neither "Yankees" nor Southerners in the church; there are only transformed brothers. There is no black, white, yellow, red, Jew, or Greek; instead, there are only the transformed people—people into whom Christ is being added daily and who are the expression of God in Christ. This is the church as the pillar supporting and bearing the mystery of godliness.

Originally posted by sonship
Cont.

The only way the church can be the corporate expression of God in the flesh is by transformation. Everyone in the church must be transformed. Occasionally we refer to the older brothers or to the younger brothers. However, in the church we should not think of some as older ones and of others as younger, for we all are being transformed. Alt ...[text shortened]... ng and bearing the mystery of godliness.

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

Originally posted by josephw

Bingo! We need to stay with the narrative, always comparing scripture with scripture, because the Word of God interprets itself for us.

It is God speaking directly to us though His written Word. If we are going to say what the Word of God says, then we should use the Word of a God to say it!

1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

To work effectually in us it is and must be the Word of God.

That's all Witness Lee was saying.

In essence - "Keep you creeds close. But keep the word of God closer!"

Originally posted by sonship
That's all Witness Lee was saying.

In essence - "Keep you creeds close. But keep the word of God closer!"

Originally posted by sonship

Southern Baptist leaders applauded Jakes' transformation while also saying Jakes isn't fully where he should be on that and other issues.

The "Southern Baptist" also could learn from Brother Witness Lee that to make a "Southern Baptist Church" is an act of the flesh, divisive, denominational and against the principle of one church for on ...[text shortened]... ased upon being exposed by the light of faithful ministry of the word of God.

Cont. below