Works first then 'Abode'

Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ says you are wrong. Not me.
Deal with that.

Again , you avoid what I have shared with you.

Christ says that he loves me and will never leave or forsake me.

Guess our conversation ( if that's what it was) is done.

You avoided all scripture showing your error and avoided all of my questions. I guess you post only to be heard not to listen (I didn't say agree) .

I at least can admit I do not know everything. It is obvious to me that you think you do. Good luck with that.

Originally posted by boonon
Again , you avoid what I have shared with you.

Christ says that he loves me and will never leave or forsake me.

Guess our conversation ( if that's what it was) is done.

You avoided all scripture showing your error and avoided all of my questions. I guess you post only to be heard not to listen (I didn't say agree) .

I at least can admit I do not know everything. It is obvious to me that you think you do. Good luck with that.

You read what Christ said. If not read over the first post of this thread.
Then you proceeded to tell me that John said something contrary to that.
Then you said I'm wrong.
I dont know everything. But Im sure that I know everything Christ said.
The words of Christ = eternal life.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I missed the point of this post. Can you restate it in different words if possible?

It would be a waste of time.

edit: Sorry, that may be a little rude.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You read what Christ said. If not read over the first post of this thread.
Then you proceeded to tell me that John said something contrary to that.
Then you said I'm wrong.
I dont know everything. But Im sure that I know everything Christ said.
The words of Christ = eternal life.

John wrote what the spirit directed him too. He did not write his own words , thoughts or theorys. Are you saying that he did?

There is no contradiction there. You are making the contradiction up yourself, by saying they said two different things. That is Your thoughts, and yours alone.

Originally posted by boonon
John wrote what the spirit directed him too. He did not write his own words , thoughts or theorys. Are you saying that he did?

There is no contradiction there. You are making the contradiction up yourself, by saying they said two different things. That is Your thoughts, and yours alone.

Can you tell me what you understand by these words of Christ ?

1. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:

2. If a man love me, he will keep my words .. and .. make our abode with him.

3. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings

Originally posted by boonon
John wrote what the spirit directed him too. He did not write his own words , thoughts or theorys. Are you saying that he did?

There is no contradiction there. You are making the contradiction up yourself, by saying they said two different things. That is Your thoughts, and yours alone.

When it comes to the Bible being the inspired word, two moments of guidance by the spirit (inspiration) are needed: Inspiration in the writing, and inspiration in the reading. Otherwise, it just comes down to luck, when what is communicated, is what is meant.

Leaving aside the question of how a writer comes to be inspired, we have to ask how a reader comes to be inspired. There seem to be quite a few people who think they are inspired as readers. Not only that, there seem to be quite a few people who think they can reliably rule on whether other people are inspired as readers.

And unless the spirit intended to convey different meanings to different people, the conflicts here and elsewhere suggest that something is not working to design. How can that be?

Originally posted by JS357
When it comes to the Bible being the inspired word, two moments of guidance by the spirit (inspiration) are needed: Inspiration in the writing, and inspiration in the reading. Otherwise, it just comes down to luck, when what is communicated, is what is meant.

Leaving aside the question of how a writer comes to be inspired, we have to ask how a reader comes ...[text shortened]... e conflicts here and elsewhere suggest that something is not working to design. How can that be?

To each, his own secret decoder ring.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Can you tell me what you understand by these words of Christ ?

[b] 1. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:

2. If a man love me, he will keep my words .. and .. make our abode with him.

3. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings [/b]

I understand and agree with these words of Christ.

I guess where we disagree is where you say you must do the works first for him to abide with you.

I have already shared with you in scripture where it says that the spirit is 'freely' given to you when you confess Christ as Lord.

Throughout the Bible it states ' you are saved by grace'. ( I am at work so I don't have time to look up all of the 'grace' references. I have seen no where in the Bible where it states that your ' works ' will save you.

Works are important as you have stated and are backed in with scripture.

I just disagree with Your sequence of works and receiving Holy Spirit.

I hope we can at least to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by boonon
I understand and agree with these words of Christ.

I guess where we disagree is where you say you must do the works first for him to abide with you.

I have already shared with you in scripture where it says that the spirit is 'freely' given to you when you confess Christ as Lord.

Throughout the Bible it states ' you are saved by grace'. ( I am at ...[text shortened]... ce of works and receiving Holy Spirit.

I hope we can at least to agree to disagree.

You have shared with me where a man John says "..the spirit is 'freely' given to you when you confess Christ as Lord. "

I have shared with you where Jesus Christ the Son of God says ..
"..John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

I will share with you another one .. 1 Cor 11:3 .. the head of every man is Christ..

Good luck to you.

Originally posted by Penguin
To each, his own secret decoder ring.

--- Penguin.

It seems that way. How can we choose Spirituality forum member A as qualified over B, as a commentator. Even the mere selection of verses, is a form of Biblical exegesis.

Originally posted by Penguin
Yes but you have only one book, containing all the (often contradictory) teachings, with no indication of which lesson should be taken when.

So its a pretty disorganised schoolmaster. No wonder there are at least 8 major denominations and countless flavours, each with their own interpretation of the Bible's teachings.

--- Penguin.

Yes but you have only one book, containing all the (often contradictory) teachings, with no indication of which lesson should be taken when.

We do not have only the Scripture alone. We also have the Holy Spirit and the apostles and prophets.

In each age, I believe, the three work together to shine light upon what needs to be emphasized for God's move on the earth.

In the natural realm it might be compared to Motion, Time, and Space. These three things are dependent upon one another in a rather "unfair" and circular way. But we measure each by employing the other two.

We measure Time with Motion through Space.
We measure Space with Time and Motion.
And we measure Motion with Time and Space.

Logically it is rather circular and unfair. But that's the way it is.

I believe have not only the Bible. We have with the Bible the living Holy Spirit and the consecrated servants of God, the apostles and prophets. And the three matters are used to check on each other.

The Word of God has to be measured by the Spirit of God and the servants of God. The servants and teachers of God have to be checked by the Spirit and the Word of God. And the Spirit of God has to be balanced by the Word of God and the servants and teachers of God.

So this mutual verification has been at work throughout the ages. So we do not dispair as the skeptic or unbeliever might dispair.

This triangle of the Scripture - the Holy Spirit - and the apostles and prophets guide and protect the people of God. We will safely arrive at out destination.

So its a pretty disorganised schoolmaster. No wonder there are at least 8 major denominations and countless flavours, each with their own interpretation of the Bible's teachings.

I agree with you that denominationalism is a scandel to the Christian church. But this scandal is not the ruin of God's work on earth. It causes God and His people some frustration. But Christ promised that the gates of Hades will not prevail against the church which He builds.

So, though, I fully agree that denominations is a obstacle and a scandal it is not enough to stop God in His tracks. You better learn now that God CANNOT be stopped. He branches OVER the walls. He overcomes every obstacle.

From the unfortunate fall of Adam, from the murder of Abel, from the failures of Israel, the failures of David, the Babylonian Captivity, the opposition and rejection of the Messiah, and the divisions among Christians, God simply CANNOT be stopped.

So we rejoice in eternal encouragement and know that Jesus is radiantly expecting to see His life prevail and overcome in His people.

It is so good to be on the victorious side of history. Imagine an infinitely ingenious chess master who simply cannot be defeated no matter what.

Originally posted by jaywill

Yes but you have only one book, containing all the (often contradictory) teachings, with no indication of which lesson should be taken when.

We do not have only the Scripture alone. We also have the Holy Spirit and the apostles and prophets.

In each age, I believe, the three work together to shine light upon what needs to be emphas ...[text shortened]... Imagine an infinitely ingenious chess master who simply cannot be defeated no matter what.

I believe have not only the Bible. We have with the Bible the living Holy Spirit and the consecrated servants of God, the apostles and prophets. And the three matters are used to check on each other.

I like this formulation but wonder -- doesn't it imply a fourth entity, the "checkers?"

Who are they? In your analogy, it is "we."

Originally posted by JS357

I believe have not only the Bible. We have with the Bible the living Holy Spirit and the consecrated servants of God, the apostles and prophets. And the three matters are used to check on each other.

I like this formulation but wonder -- doesn't it imply a fourth entity, the "checkers?"

Who are they? In your analogy, it is "we."

I like this formulation but wonder -- doesn't it imply a fourth entity, the "checkers?"

Who are they? In your analogy, it is "we."

The people of God. His saints.

Originally posted by jaywill

Yes but you have only one book, containing all the (often contradictory) teachings, with no indication of which lesson should be taken when.

We do not have only the Scripture alone. We also have the Holy Spirit and the apostles and prophets.

In each age, I believe, the three work together to shine light upon what needs to be emphas ...[text shortened]... Imagine an infinitely ingenious chess master who simply cannot be defeated no matter what.

So you have a book of contradictory fables, a mystical concept mentioned in that book and a collection of dead individuals that the religion's leaders of the time decided were extra special.

I don't think that adds up to anything more than any other religion has. It is certainly not helping Christianity to come up with any meaningful 'lesson plan' and is essentially the reason why you have this 'scandal' of multiple conflicting denominations all teaching their own interpretation of the same book.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by Penguin
So you have a book of contradictory fables, a mystical concept mentioned in that book and a collection of dead individuals that the religion's leaders of the time decided were extra special.

I don't think that adds up to anything more than any other religion has. It is certainly not helping Christianity to come up with any meaningful 'lesson plan' and is ting denominations all teaching their own interpretation of the same book.

--- Penguin.

So you have a book of contradictory fables,

Those are your words and reflect your hope.

You hope that one Jesus of Nazareth is a fable.
You hope that "contrdictions" in the "fable" of one Jesus of Nazareth with greatly reduce the significance of His life and words. And for this fanciful story will not have to be taken seriously by you.

That's where you're hedging your bets.

a mystical concept mentioned in that book and a collection of dead individuals that the religion's leaders of the time decided were extra special.

I may not object completely to the use of the term "mystical". However the available and living Christ in resurrection is the central truth of the New Testament.

And thankfully we have men who pioneered early in the experience of this Christ, both individually and corporately. These are the writers of the NT. As well we have in the last 20 centries many more who experienced this truth of Christ's availability and richness. And much of a road map has been built up and left to assist subsequent generations.

It might be compared to learning chess. I am not a very good chess player. I don't like to listen to the wisdom of the past years. I bore quickly from reading old games and classic best moves. For that reason I get trounced a lot because I'm too lazy to really study the better tried and true stradegies.

This is similar to the enjoyment of the "mystical" yet available Christ. We can learn a whole lot from others who have gone before. This is called being in fellowship. We can stand upon the shoulders of others who learned.

Like you could learn a little from me. If you wanted to enter into the experience of New Testament salvation, if you were not closed minded, you could learn from the Bible and from others who have so experienced the resurrected Christ.

So you can talk "fable" all you want. The loss is your loss because Christ is believable, trustworthy, and very faithful to the Bible teaching.

I don't think that adds up to anything more than any other religion has. It is certainly not helping Christianity to come up with any meaningful 'lesson plan' and is essentially the reason why you have this 'scandal' of multiple conflicting denominations all teaching their own interpretation of the same book.

Denominations are more often formed because of ambition for position. Some "teacher" didn't want to play second fiddle to someone else.

Often the doctrinal matters are really a pretense for other things, like someone wanting his own "turf".

We are not all in denominations. We are not all in divisions. And if you think the unfortunate existence of divisions will completely nullify the teaching of Christ you're going to be disappointed.

The children of Israel were to remain in the Good Land of Canaan. In spite of this perfect will of God they were scattered into the Babylonian Captivity. Though that was not the plan and was a scandal it did not stop men of God like Daniel from rising to the forefront.

Daniel lived in the Babylonian Captivity. His book is extremly penetrating in prophecy and in truth. The "scandal" of the dispersion did not stop God.

And you are going to be disappointed if you hang your hopes on the scandal of Christian dispersion into denominations stopping the moving God cold. I told already. The history of the moving God is one of a God who cannot be stopped, even with the failures of His elect.

So if you wish to persue New Testament Christians who are not caught in denominations you may. It is no excuse.

But I would advize you to not hang your hopes on this thought:

" Because denominations exist, because Christians are divided into different kinds of "churches" THEREFORE I do not have to take the life of Jesus Christ seriously. "

Paul wrote that divisions even caused those approved in their fellowship to be manifested all the more:

" ... I hear that divisions exist among you; and some part of it I believe. For there must even be parties among you, that those who are approved may become manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:18b-19)

Sorry Penguin. Denominations are not a show stopper with God's eternal purpose.