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27 Mar 09
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28 Jun 09
A great game to watch -- shame about the injuries, but the Boks were just more physical, and that's rugby.
But what is wrong with Peter de Villiers?
"South Africa coach Peter de Villiers said not only should Burger not have been sent off but he should not have been shown a card of any colour.
"I don't think it should have been a card at all," De Villiers said."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/8122733.stm
Gouging has no place in rugby -- I expect Burger will get 12 weeks.
29 Jun 09
Originally posted by HumeAPDV is an idiot, Burger got off lightly, possibly because he was carded in the game?
A great game to watch -- shame about the injuries, but the Boks were just more physical, and that's rugby.
But what is wrong with Peter de Villiers?
"South Africa coach Peter de Villiers said not only should Burger not have been sent off but he should not have been shown a card of any colour.
"I don't think it should have been a card at all," De Vill ...[text shortened]... y_union/8122733.stm
Gouging has no place in rugby -- I expect Burger will get 12 weeks.
But yet again we also see the inherent bias towards SA players as Bakkies Botha gets a 2 week ban after taking a Lions player out who was infringing at the breakdown for the umpteenth time.
What bull! Are we going to have a SA player cited every time an opponent breaks a nail? Christ!
Seriously, do Northern Hemisphere teams and refs have a different rulebook, because I saw a Lions side that went offside at probably 75% of breakdowns where they were also killing the ball almost every time whether by falling over, tackler not releasing or just grabbing the ball.
It's very frustrating when you watch a side getting away with murder, but the boks get penalised on these strange technical points almost never seen.
That last O'Gara penalty that the ref botched was only justice for having a ref with one eye practically the whole game.
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30 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by CrowleyI haven't seen the Jones/Botha incident, but I can only assume that for it to have been cited, it was deemed that Botha hit Jones with clear intent to injure.
PDV is an idiot, Burger got off lightly, possibly because he was carded in the game?
But yet again we also see the inherent bias towards SA players as Bakkies Botha gets a 2 week ban after taking a Lions player out who was infringing at the breakdown for the umpteenth time.
What bull! Are we going to have a SA player cited every time an opponent breaks hat the ref botched was only justice for having a ref with one eye practically the whole game.
"Seriously, do Northern Hemisphere teams and refs have a different rulebook, because I saw a Lions side that went offside at probably 75% of breakdowns where they were also killing the ball almost every time whether by falling over, tackler not releasing or just grabbing the ball."
Rugby is a funny game. Those are the exact complaints that many Lions supporters have about the game with regards to SA infringing. I suppose that when the blood is up, one sees what they want to see.
Many may disagree with me, but I thought that this Lions side deserved to take it to the final test. A strong scrum -- Vickery aside -- and possibly one of the most dangerous centre partnerships I have ever seen. Having said that, we all know that SA are a quality side, and the series has produced two very exciting Test matches. Let's hope we get a third, even without the same level of motivation.
30 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by HumeAThe problem we have is the obvious bias being shown:
I haven't seen the Jones/Botha incident, but I can only assume that for it to have been cited, it was deemed that Botha hit Jones with clear intent to injure.
Rugby is a funny game. Those are the exact complaints that many Lions supporters have about the game with regards to SA infringing. I suppose that when the blood is up, one sees what they want to see. ...[text shortened]... y exciting Test matches. Let's hope we get a third, even without the same level of motivation.
- Sheridan threw a punch right in the open, but was not penalised, nor cited.
- O'Driscoll goes in high and dangerous with no arms, injuring Rossouw, but is neither penalised nor cited.
- The boks were offside twice, if I remember correctly, and were penalised both times. The Lions go offside at almost every defensive phase, but are pinged only once?
Botha cleans out an infringing opponent and gets a ban because the pudgy bastard gets hurt.
Sure, he went in hard, but replays show him using his arms, so the ban is harsh.
You see my [our] frustration?
The Lions have played well, make no mistake, but idiotic bok selections and an inexperienced ref turned what should have been routs into exciting games.
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01 Jul 09
Originally posted by CrowleyBotha, as I said, was obviosly deemed to have hit Jones with intent to injure. Jones' arm was on the ruck, and Botha drove down onto it (going off his feet in the process).
The problem we have is the obvious bias being shown:
- Sheridan threw a punch right in the open, but was not penalised, nor cited.
- O'Driscoll goes in high and dangerous with no arms, injuring Rossouw, but is neither penalised nor cited.
- The boks were offside twice, if I remember correctly, and were penalised both times. The Lions go offside at almo ...[text shortened]... bok selections and an inexperienced ref turned what should have been routs into exciting games.
- Sheridan threw a punch right in the open, but was not penalised, nor cited.
This?
Compared to the actions of Burger and Botha, it's laughable.
- O'Driscoll goes in high and dangerous with no arms, injuring Rossouw, but is neither penalised nor cited.
&NR=1
It's clearly not a shoulder charge. Ever tried to wrap you arms when you've been knocked out? Watch the head clash, and O'Driscoll go down.
But I can see your frustration. It's a frustration shared by Lions fans. Burger should have seen red; a unseen cheap shot from Botha ended the scrum contest; SA were offside throughout the day; SA went off their feet at ruck time -- killing the ball -- all day. And that's just the second test.
Selection issues? If Jones had been picked ahead of Vickery in the first test, the Boks would hardly have had the ball. The Lions bench lost us the second test, absolutely useless. You're right about refereeing decisions turning routs into exciting games: the Boks should have played 79 minutes with 14 men -- that would have been a rout.
My point is that it evens out and goes both ways. The Lions could quite easily have won the series, but they didn't and that's rugby.
01 Jul 09
Originally posted by HumeAHave you played rugby? I'm sorry, but Botha went in hard, not illegally.
Botha, as I said, was obviosly deemed to have hit Jones with intent to injure. Jones' arm was on the ruck, and Botha drove down onto it (going off his feet in the process).
- Sheridan threw a punch right in the open, but was not penalised, nor cited.
This?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utI_-SEclRc
Compared to the actions of Burger and Botha ...[text shortened]... . The Lions could quite easily have won the series, but they didn't and that's rugby.
Also, Sheridan tried to punch out another guys bollocks and that is quite sinister where I come from. The intent is what we penalise, not the result.
BTW, I was talking about SA selections, not the Lions. Your assertion that Jones would have bull-dozed us is almost as laughable of your dismissing the Sheridan incident and agreeing with the Botha ban.
Even without Burger on the field our scrums looked pretty solid and your scrum, while heavier, never dominated the bok scrum. Static scrums in this last test just gave you a chance to compete and also a platform to go offside all the time.
02 Jul 09
Originally posted by CrowleyI hear you HumeA, but to add to the debate ... Will Carling also has a blog in which he reckons the Boks won fair and square and the Brits must stop the whining. I reckon I'm a bit more neutral than Crowley (peace, bro'😉.
The problem we have is the obvious bias being shown:
- Sheridan threw a punch right in the open, but was not penalised, nor cited.
- O'Driscoll goes in high and dangerous with no arms, injuring Rossouw, but is neither penalised nor cited.
- The boks were offside twice, if I remember correctly, and were penalised both times. The Lions go offside at almo ...[text shortened]... bok selections and an inexperienced ref turned what should have been routs into exciting games.
I watched the game again the other night and my initial impressions were confirmed. Part of the team plan was for Sheridan to get under the Bok skins and to be as aggressive, abrasive and dirty as possible. Well, we know Bakkies Botha has a short fuse and it nearly worked. Schalk Burger's sin was unforgivable, but Sheridan played a more calculated and dirty game. His rabbit punch in the nuts on Bekker is a more blatant example. Bekker showed remarkable restraint in just pushing Sheridan way, instead of hitting him, which is what I think the Lion's game plan called for.
Whenever there was pushing and shoving, the Lions were first in. In the first instance about 8 minutes into the game, I'm sure there was a punch or at least a slap thrown from a Lions second player coming in, which was not returned by the Boks. In general, the Boks showed restraint but also played as hard as only they can, but they did not get involved in fisticuffs which I think the Lions were trying to provoke.
I didn't see anything worng in the cleanout by Botha for which he was cited and given a two week suspension. I'm disappointed by the Bok team management's lack of response in not citing Sheridan, because he should also have got eight weeks off.
As for the penalty count, I saw three penalties coming from high tackles by the Lions, but just one from the Boks.
Brian O'Driscoll's aggressive tackling took out two players - one his own and the other (from an offside position for which he was not penalised), Danie Rossouw. We can thank him for this last, which brought on the the much-needed Brussouw. That was probably the turning point in the game.
I'm with Will Carling - it was Test rugby at its hardest and best. And the Lions lost - stop looking for excuses.
And yes, our team coach is a national embarassment every time he opens his mouth. We can all agree on that.
02 Jul 09
Originally posted by najdorfslayerwww
My Team
de
15. Lee Byrne (Wales)
14. Tommy Bowe (Ireland)
13. Brian O'Driscoll (Ireland)
12. Riki Flutey (England)
11. Shane Williams (Wales)
10. Stephen Jones (Wales)
9. Mike Phillips (Wales)
1. Gethin Jenkins (Wales)
2. Jerry Flannery (Ireland)
3. Euan Murray (Scotland)
4. Alan Wyn Jones (Wales)
5. Paul O'Connell (Ireland)
6. Tom Croft (England)
7. David Wallace (Ireland)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Ireland)
Comments??
02 Jul 09
Originally posted by HumeAAnything but hilarious. I got kneed once - and the b*stard threw me over his back at the same time. It's a pain that goes straight through to your coccyx, brings tears to your eyes and is debilitating. Needless, to say, the referee saw nothing.
This?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utI_-SEclRc
Compared to the actions of Burger and Botha, it's laughable.
The intent was there. He missed, that's all. Sheridan is one of the dirtiest players I've ever seen in an international jersey.
03 Jul 09
Do you guys need a ref?
I missed the fun of the SA Lions game after the last AB game almost put me off rugby it was so poor. Now the French PM has apologised to the NZ PM for his players embarrassing behaviour we can get back to critiscing Graeme henry. Laurie Mains has called for Henry to go.
Anyway a much more excitement in here than in the rugby press in NZ.
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03 Jul 09
Originally posted by buffalobillPerhaps I haven't watched as much of Sheridan as you have -- my impression of him is a dull, docile guy (one of his hobbies is brick laying, c'mon!) who has a foul temper. Saw it in NZ in 2005, and luckily he missed, saw it against SA last weekend. The guy has the mind and temper of a child, and the result is that he lashes out every now and then.
Anything but hilarious. I got kneed once - and the b*stard threw me over his back at the same time. It's a pain that goes straight through to your coccyx, brings tears to your eyes and is debilitating. Needless, to say, the referee saw nothing.
The intent was there. He missed, that's all. Sheridan is one of the dirtiest players I've ever seen in an international jersey.
You're both right, of course, a punch to the balls is a punch to the balls, and deserves punishment.
But 8 weeks would almost be as harsh as Burger's 8 weeks is lenient.
Pushed, I'd suggest he get the same as Botha, although I know for a fact that if I were playing I would rather be punched in the balls than have my arm targeted like that -- a career threatening injury for a prop.
Your point about the Lions niggle is an interesting one, and one that I think does come down to Bok reputation. When teams go down to SA, you expect a battle, and to be honest, you expect it to not all be within the lawbook. I would say that it was a clear tactic of the Lions not to take a backward step, and to show the Boks that you'll get as good as you give, etc. -- and I'm sure this mentality went back even before the infamous '99' call of '74
As much as one can try to 'just play rugby' against a niggling, aggressive and rough side (and oh how I have tried!) it tends to be much more effective just to get stuck in.
03 Jul 09
Originally posted by HumeAThe Botha cleanout was normal rugby. I'm gobsmacked about the citing and the punishment which I think is ludicrous. I can't see that his arm was targeted specifically, unless of course his arm was in there playing the ball, which case he needed to get it out of the way.
Pushed, I'd suggest he get the same as Botha, although I know for a fact that if I were playing I would rather be punched in the balls than have my arm targeted like that -- a career threatening injury for a prop.
Your point about the Lions niggle is an interesting one, and one that I think does come down to Bok reputation. When teams go down to SA, ...[text shortened]... side (and oh how I have tried!) it tends to be much more effective just to get stuck in.
Well, yes, I think the Lions went in there with the 99 attitude. Every time there was "handbag" stuff, the Lions were in there en masse and in so doing upped the tension. The Boks of today are a very different team to '74 and the Lions need to realise that. Yes, they play VERY hard and physical but this is Test rugby. Burger apart, the dirty and the offside stuff all came from the Lions.
PS I was at the '74 game in Windhoek - their second game and the Lions were all at sixes and sevens against the high ball. It took them a while to acclimatise and I'd like to see future Lions tours extended at leat a week, And of course, they have to meet decent opposition. The decision by the Bok coach/management to withdraw senior players from the provincial games the Lions played, denigrated the tour. The fans weren't fooled, either, with low attendances to these matches.
04 Jul 09
1 edit
Originally posted by buffalobillI'm glad I'm not the only one who believes this. Botha is being targeted by biased administrators who just seem to want to believe that bok players' only agenda is to hurt opponents.
The Botha cleanout was normal rugby. I'm gobsmacked about the citing and the punishment which I think is ludicrous. I can't see that his arm was targeted specifically, unless of course his arm was in there playing the ball, which case he needed to get it out of the way.
Every time there was "handbag" stuff, the Lions were in there en masse and in so his is Test rugby. Burger apart, the dirty and the offside stuff all came from the Lions.
John Smit's comments about the Botha incident is also on the mark:
“We’re angry with the outcome of the appeal. I just hope and pray that Bakkies has been victimised (in this instance), and that this is not the way the game is going,” said Smit.
“The players are happy to stand against a ruling like this and I’ve had calls from a few referees saying we must stand against it. We’ve been supported by the Lions management and players an also by players around the world. A ruling like this has the potential to set a precedent to ruin this great game of ours. It’s ludicrous.
“We have to believe Bakkies has been victimised. Otherwise you could take 15 to 20 clips from every test and ban guys for clearing from the ruck. It’s a scary scenario.”
Smit reiterated the general view that Botha’s clean-out was legal and even a text-book example of how it should be done.
“Bakkies has come from behind the gate and used his arms to clear Jones away. It’s unfortunate that Jones’s arm was stuck in the ruck and he got injured. A moment earlier Matthew Rees cleared Bakkies away in similar fashion. We accept that this is the nature of the game.”
04 Jul 09
All credit to the Lions today. They outplayed the Boks who were a fractured and disjointed unit. At the end of the day, the Lions wanted the win more and had two magic moments in Williams' tries. They also outplayed the Boks in the loose who were guilty of not committing enough players to the breakdown and conceding too many turnovers. The Lions backs looked to me almost always offside, but they got away with it. The Boks' backline play was too one dimensional, anyway.
Two turning points: The Boks not taking the penalty kick when 15-6 down; and then the Monye intercept. That was a 14-pointer.