Greatest Baseball player of all time.

Originally posted by richfeet
The Babe set his records before Blacks were allowed to play i dont count the records before blacks were allowed to play. Black players had to play in the Negro Leagues in which many records were broken for example Josh Gibson hit over 800 home runs in the Negro League who knows how many he would have hit in the majors if he and the others were allowed to play but due to Jim Crow they were never gave a chance

You have to keep in mind that Gibson's "800" homers (which is an estimated total anyway) were hit against all levels of competition. This includes both Negro League games and exhibition games. By the same token, we could say that Babe Ruth hit close to 1,000 home runs if we include all exhibitions and barnstorming trips.


However, Gibson, had he been allowed to play in the major leagues, would certainly have been the best hitting catcher of all time, if not the best hitter at any position.

The Sporting News of June 3, 1967 credits Gibson with a home run in a Negro League game at Yankee Stadium that struck two feet from the top of the wall circling the center field bleachers, about 580 feet from home plate. Although it has never been conclusively proven, Chicago American Giants infielder Jack Marshall said Gibson slugged one over the third deck next to the left field bullpen in 1934 for the only fair ball hit out of the Yankee Stadium.

However, Gibson, in interviews later in life in which he discussed his most memorable home runs, never mentioned hitting a ball out of Yankee Stadium.

No question that Gibson could very well have been the greatest hitter of all time.

Originally posted by TheBloop
You have to keep in mind that Gibson's "800" homers (which is an estimated total anyway) were hit against all levels of competition. This includes both Negro League games and exhibition games. By the same token, we could say that Babe Ruth hit close to 1,000 home runs if we include all exhibitions and barnstorming trips.


However, Gibson, had he been ...[text shortened]... tadium.

No question that Gibson could very well have been the greatest hitter of all time.

They don't call him "The Babe Ruth of the Negro Leagues" for nothing.

The Josh Gibson story has all of the elements for the creation of a cult figure: the lost opportunity, the mystery, and the early demise.

We could just as easily call him the "James Dean of the Negro Leagues."

By all accounts he was a great hitter. Had he played in the majors, I think they probably would have put him at first base.

TSN ranked Gibson as the 18th best player of all time. But, Josh wasn't known as a defensive player. He was known as a hitter.

Let's start with an easier question: was he the greatest right-handed hitter of all time?

The usual contenders for that title are: Hornsby, Mays, and Aaron.
In my mind, Gibson isn't as good as any of those three, but there is no way to tell for sure.

Originally posted by Red Night
They don't call him "The Babe Ruth of the Negro Leagues" for nothing.

The Josh Gibson story has all of the elements for the creation of a cult figure: the lost opportunity, the mystery, and the early demise.

We could just as easily call him the "James Dean of the Negro Leagues."

By all accounts he was a great hitter. Had he played in the majors ...[text shortened]... mind, Gibson isn't as good as any of those three, but there is no way to tell for sure.

Yes, it's unfortunate that there's really no way of knowing what Gibson would have hit in the majors. I know there are records out there documenting what he did against barnstorming major leaguers, but even if we had box scores of all such games in which Gibson participated, the data sample would still probably be too small to make any real judgements.

And you may be right about Gibson being switched to first base had he played in the majors...he had a great throwing arm, but his overall defensive skills behind the plate were average. I'm not sure how he was in terms of his ability to call a game.

Several major league managers openly expressed their desire to sign Gibson during the 1930s, had such things been allowed at the time.

Re: Right handed batters...that's a good way to break this down. I think Aaron was a better hitter than Mays (Aaron thinks so too LOL), even though I liked Mays better as a kid.

Hornsby was indeed a great hitter, but he seems to have benefited in a major way from two things: (1) playing during the 1920s, with league-wide offensive totals at all time highs and (2) Playing in the best hitters parks in the National League, Sportsman's Park and Wrigley Field. He played 85% of his career in the two best hitters parks of the National League.

Bill James has pointed out that as awesome as Hornsby's stats were, if you look at his career, there's always someone right beside him, in the same town or the same park, that was doing basically the same things... When Hornsby hit .384 with 17 HR and 83 RBI in 1923, a teammate hit .371 with 8 and 94. In 1927, when he hit .361 with 26 HR and 125 RBI, a teammate hit .326 with 20 and 121... and of course, accross town, a couple of guys named Ruth and Gehrig did a whole lot better. In 1929, when Hornsby hit 39 HR and drove in 149 runs, a teammate had 39 and 159.

Also, four or five teams that had Hornsby thought they'd be better of without him, and it could be argued that they were. He was on the World Champion Cardinals in 1926, after which he was traded, and the Cardinals improved by 3 1/2 games the next year, although they dropped from 1st to 2nd. The Giants traded Hornsby and improved by a game. The Braves traded Hornsby and improved by 5 and 1/2 games (but still finished last). The Cubs dismissed Hornsby as a player and manager in mid-season 1932, and surged to the pennant after so doing.

In 1922, Hornsby hit .401 with 42 HR and 152 RBI... don't have the home/road breakdown for Hornsby, but the breakdown for Ken Williams and George Sisler are available (they played for the Browns, but in the same stadium, just a different league):

Williams total: 39 HR 155 RBI .332
Williams Home 77 games .373 32 HR 103 RBI
Williams Road .290 7 HR 52 RBI

George Sisler, 1920
Overall .407 19 HR 122 RBI
Home .473 15 HR 87 RBI
Road .341 4 HR 35 RBI

This is not to say that Hornsby wasn't a great hitter...he was. But I think that he would not have hit what he did in most other times, and in most other places.

Originally posted by TheBloop
Yes, it's unfortunate that there's really no way of knowing what Gibson would have hit in the majors. I know there are records out there documenting what he did against barnstorming major leaguers, but even if we had box scores of all such games in which Gibson participated, the data sample would still probably be too small to make any real judgements.

that he would not have hit what he did in most other times, and in most other places.

First, I have to tell you that I'm not a big James fan. I think he made some math errors and jumped to some silly conclusions.

Having said that, I think he is right about the 20's/30's.
The numbers are inflated. Bill Terry, Foxx, Al Simmons, Ruth, Gehrig, Hornsby.
If you go strictly by the numbers, the greatest players of all time come out of that era.

So did Gibson.

Why were the numbers so much better during that era?
There were some awfully good pitchers during that era too.
What you get is a picture where the good players were exceptionally good and the average players were less than average.

In my opinion what happens is that power pitchers, like amos rusie, begin to arrive in the late 1800s and early 1900s.
As more and more power pitchers take the place of the old side-armers and under-handers, it makes more sense to stand upright at the plate and swing level to drive the ball.

I think Ruth is the first guy to really do this and he has a host of imitators.
I think slowly over the next few decades, pitchers learn to deal with this new approach by changing speeds and throwing more pitches.