10 Jun 07
Originally posted by RagnorakGood post Rag. It seems that English football fans getting tipsy on the continent is far more of a problem to UEFA than the incidents involving our knife carrying, flare throwing, ref attacking, match fixing, police murdering rascist European cousins.
Can you tell me what incidences Liverpool have been punished for as a club? I believe the answer is none.
Tell me which is worse? 2 Liverpool "fans" getting involved in a fracas or 40,000 Real Zaragoza (or other Spanish/Italian/whereever) fans racially abusing black players, game after game, season after season?
How many police officers have Liver ...[text shortened]... Liverpool fans? How many times have Liverpool fans attacked/thrown missiles at the ref?
D
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by RagnorakGood post Rag. It seems that English football fans getting tipsy on the continent is far more of a problem to UEFA than the incidents involving our knife carrying, flare throwing, ref attacking, match fixing, police murdering rascist European cousins.
Can you tell me what incidences Liverpool have been punished for as a club? I believe the answer is none.
Tell me which is worse? 2 Liverpool "fans" getting involved in a fracas or 40,000 Real Zaragoza (or other Spanish/Italian/whereever) fans racially abusing black players, game after game, season after season?
How many police officers have Liver ...[text shortened]... Liverpool fans? How many times have Liverpool fans attacked/thrown missiles at the ref?
D
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by RagnorakLiverpool fans generally behave impeccably. If they are provoked by opposing fans or the police they may react in a small way which gives the police an excuse to make arrests. It can be very hard to completely ignore provocation, and this goes for any fans of any team.
Can you tell me what incidences Liverpool have been punished for as a club? I believe the answer is none.
Tell me which is worse? 2 Liverpool "fans" getting involved in a fracas or 40,000 Real Zaragoza (or other Spanish/Italian/whereever) fans racially abusing black players, game after game, season after season?
How many police officers have Liver ...[text shortened]... Liverpool fans? How many times have Liverpool fans attacked/thrown missiles at the ref?
D
European fans and police know very well that English football has cleaned up its act and are embarrassed by the mess in their own back yards so are trying to divert attention away by leading English fans into another incident of front page proportions. I'm not saying on the scale of Heysel, but some might say the incidents this season were evidence enough.
Liverpool, like other English sides, have let themselves down in the past but have learned from this and left alone, are an example for English football.
Roma and some Italian teams have sizeable followings about whom I would not be so kind. I have seen things outside and inside the Stadio Olimpico that made me feel very sick. And I've seen the police and stewards do NOTHING. Yet they managed to act when Man U rolled into town. But why? And it got nasty. So now it's all the English hooligans' fault again. How convenient for the Italian authorities charged with cleaning up a very embarrassing situation for the national sport (in which we are STILL WORLD CHAMPIONS!!!!!)
Thing is, the face of English football has nowt but a few zits. Continental football has skin lesions from forehead to lower neck.
Liverpool still suck though. I wish their well-behaved and passionate, friendly and loyal supporters another trophyless season in 2007-08.
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by Ragnorak40.000? Or other Spanish/Italian/wherever? Game after game, season after season?
Can you tell me what incidences Liverpool have been punished for as a club? I believe the answer is none.
Tell me which is worse? 2 Liverpool "fans" getting involved in a fracas or 40,000 Real Zaragoza (or other Spanish/Italian/whereever) fans racially abusing black players, game after game, season after season?
How many police officers have Liver ...[text shortened]... Liverpool fans? How many times have Liverpool fans attacked/thrown missiles at the ref?
D
If you want a commentary, try having a sense of reality first.
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by asromacalcioEuropean fans and police know very well that English football has cleaned up its act and are embarrassed by the mess in their own back yards so are trying to divert attention away by leading English fans into another incident of front page proportions. I'm not saying on the scale of Heysel, but some might say the incidents this season were evidence enough.
Liverpool fans generally behave impeccably. If they are provoked by opposing fans or the police they may react in a small way which gives the police an excuse to make arrests. It can be very hard to completely ignore provocation, and this goes for any fans of any team.
European fans and police know very well that English football has cleaned up its a ...[text shortened]... -behaved and passionate, friendly and loyal supporters another trophyless season in 2007-08.
Ah... There's nothing like reading good ol' paranoia in a Sunday morning.
And by the way, Roma was punished by UEFA for their fans behaviour not so long ago with the Frisk incident. Denmark as well, last week. Inter in 2005. And those are the recent ones that come to mind. Your paranoia just doesn't stick with the facts.
10 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by PalynkaAnd how have Liverpool been censured for having the worst fans?
[b]European fans and police know very well that English football has cleaned up its act and are embarrassed by the mess in their own back yards so are trying to divert attention away by leading English fans into another incident of front page proportions. I'm not saying on the scale of Heysel, but some might say the incidents this season were evidence enough ...[text shortened]... se are the recent ones that come to mind. Your paranoia just doesn't stick with the facts.[/b]
D
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by RagnorakThey haven't, which shows that, if anything, UEFA has been favouring English clubs.
And how have Liverpool been censured for having the worst fans?
D
If, by their own statements, UEFA considers Liverpool fans among the worst in Europe, it's scandalous that they haven't dished out any fines or sanctions to the club.
10 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by PalynkaIt was Sunday afternoon when I wrote it though. Mitigation enough?
European fans and police know very well that English football has cleaned up its act and are embarrassed by the mess in their own back yards so are trying to divert attention away by leading English fans into another incident of front page proportions. I'm not saying on the scale of Heysel, but some might say the incidents this season were evidence enough hose are the recent ones that come to mind. Your paranoia just doesn't stick with the facts.
As for paranoia, I don't have any great sense of affinity with Engish football. I support Crewe, a League One side with a fantastic reputation for being the friendly family talent nurturing club, and an Italian semi-glamourous side in the most beautiful capital city I've ever been to. Period!
And as for these facts you raise, I know, they are irrefutable and I hadn't considered them before posting, but they don't, IMHO, undermine my argument. I said that English football had cleaned up its act and that continental, especially Italian football, was ashamed at not having done the same. There are some therefore trying to egg English hooligans back into 'action' to take some of the attention away from these other instances of disgraceful fan behaviour. Until this season people (at least the many I've met) couldn't draw attention to English hooligans any more although they wanted to. Inter fans after the debacle when Nelson Dida was stunned by a flare (when did scousers ever, EVER, do that?) were still trying to go on about Leeds et al. Your examples would, I'd say, back me up rather than anything.
We in England (or should I say 'they'?) may not be perfect but we've got the shop in better order than you.
If there is any hypocrisy in my post (I know you weren't accusing me of that) it's to be found in this point... that unless European football grows up and stops pointing the finger at the other countries, other clubs, other fans etc, we will NEVER sort this mess out!
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by asromacalcioGood points, mate.
It was Sunday afternoon when I wrote it though. Mitigation enough?
As for paranoia, I don't have any great sense of affinity with Engish football. I support Crewe, a League One side with a fantastic reputation for being the friendly family talent nurturing club, and an Italian semi-glamourous side in the most beautiful capital city I've ever been to. ...[text shortened]... he other countries, other clubs, other fans etc, we will NEVER sort this mess out!
Don't get me wrong. I agree that England has led the way and provides a sterling example at how to lead with hooliganism. Other European countries (e.g. Italy) would do well to learn from England in those matters.
But the thing is that English hooliganism is a social phenomenon and as such it must be controlled in the short-run (like in England nowadays) so that it disappears in the long-run (which I think isn't quite here yet).
In the meantime, English hooligans that have been driven under a rock in England, profit from Continental inability to deal with them. It isn't a conspiracy to provoke or taunt English fans, it's simply inability to deal with them.
So, yes, I agree that Continental authorities are to blame. But not for being biased against English fans, for not learning from the good example that your (English) authorities provide. That said, this doesn't exonerate those fans behaviours and if Liverpool fans have indeed create that many incidents, and relevant ones, the club Liverpool should also be punished as that has been the rule for other European clubs.
10 Jun 07
Originally posted by PalynkaThanks.
Good points, mate.
Don't get me wrong. I agree that England has led the way and provides a sterling example at how to lead with hooliganism. Other European countries (e.g. Italy) would do well to learn from England in those matters.
But the thing is that English hooliganism is a social phenomenon and as such it must be controlled in the short-run (like ...[text shortened]... club Liverpool should also be punished as that has been the rule for other European clubs.
Yes, if Liverpool (especially) let themselves down I am one of the first on their backs. I just don't see the same troubles in England as I did in Italy. I was at a Roma Empoli game once and was terrified of some of the routine violence in and out of the ground. This is my team I'm talking about too. And yet people still seem to see this as an English problem.
We may still be a part of it but we're not the worst, not in the top ten now, although perhaps potentially yes.
And the police on the continent have to realise both of these things before something serious, and I mean serious happens.
