Originally posted by Melanerpes"Yes - you can argue that Armstrong just "didn't have the legs".
Yes - you can argue that Armstrong just "didn't have the legs".
but you can also argue that he knew that making up the 1:30+ margin on Contador to win the overall tour was a longshot. So the next best thing would be to do nothing that would help Wiggins.
Unless Lance comes out and says he just couldn't keep up, we'll never know for sure. He may well r these guys beat each other up, some other team's rider sneaked in and won it.
but you can also argue that he knew that making up the 1:30+ margin on Contador to win the overall tour was a longshot. So the next best thing would be to do nothing that would help Wiggins.
Unless Lance comes out and says he just couldn't keep up, we'll never know for sure. He may well have been beaten anyway, but considering the kind of competitor that Lance is, it seems unlikely he would have dropped back as quietly as he did. But who knows?"
Seems to me that Armstrong did say that he doesn't have the legs of the "young guys". Even if he didn't mean for it to apply to that particular situation, you only need know that Armstrong not only couldn't make the initial break, but he didn't have enough to blow Wiggins off his wheel until much later in the climb though he tried. Keep in mind that Frank Schleck fell back into the Armstrong group, then blew both Armstrong and Wiggins away with a strong attack. The fact that Armstrong didn't do the same was quite telling. If he could have, he would have. Maybe you don't understand that Frank was under the same constraint as Armstrong. The difference was that Frank had the legs and Armstrong didn't. I don't know how you can have any doubt. You sound like a die-hard fan who's allowed his heart to get in the way of the facts.
I am not disagreeing with you
But the way I originally saw it was - Bradley Wiggins was expected to do very well in the time trial. Perhaps he could've made some gains on Contador. (Turns out he did not). If Lance had immediately responded to Contador's move, it would've made it easier for Wiggins to stay with Contador as well. It made a lot of sense from a team standpoint for Lance to hold back and not do anything to help Wiggins. Even if that's not what happened, there was a logical reason to do it for the sake of "the team", and that irked me.
This was also the impression I got from the commentators during the race. Perhaps that biased my perception of what was happening. Perhaps they misread the situation.
As for Lance, he says he's going to be back next year. Lance has probably declined somewhat due to his age -- but there was also that long time off, and the broken collarbone must have hampered his training. But it's also possible that Contador is just better than Lance and would've beaten him 5 years ago too. Maybe Lance hasn't really declined much at all.
Contador is currently 26 -- In addition to his dominance in the mountains, he also won today's time trial. He's blowing away the rest of the field. If he hadn't been forced to miss the 2006 and 2008 Tours due to his team pulling out, he may well be on his way to a third or fourth straight title. Lance didn't win his first title until he was 27, so Contador may well end up surpassing Lance's career achievements.
Just keeping my fingers crossed that we don't hear about any suspiscious test tubes.
Originally posted by MelanerpesYour take makes little sense to me. When A Schleck went Contador jumped on his wheel and Kloden struggled to stay with Contador with Wiggins on Kloden's wheel and Armstrong behind Wiggins. If anything, it was Kloden who risked taking Wiggins with him.
I am not disagreeing with you
But the way I originally saw it was - Bradley Wiggins was expected to do very well in the time trial. Perhaps he could've made some gains on Contador. (Turns out he did not). If Lance had immediately responded to Contador's move, it would've made it easier for Wiggins to stay with Contador as well. It made a lot of sense f ...[text shortened]... keeping my fingers crossed that we don't hear about any suspiscious test tubes.
Seems to me that you might have misinterpreted what the announcers were saying. You gotta remember that they have a bias toward making it seem like Armstrong is doing well to keep the casual viewers interested. When they were saying stuff about Armstrong being a "team player" I'm sure it sounds better than Armstrong missed the break and didn't have the legs to blow Wiggins off his wheel like Schleck, Contador and Kloden. Armstrong just didn't have it. And yeah, if you don't have it all there is left to do is be a "team player". Another example was when Armstrong made his charge to close the gap on Petit Saint-Bernard. They went on and on about how strong his attack was and how he looked like "the Lance of old". What they didn't really mention was that about a half dozen riders also made the same charge. They made a bigger deal out of it than it was. It wasn't that special.
We'll have to see how Armstrong does next year. Heck, he might even do something special on Ventoux, but it seems unlikely. You're kidding yourself if you believe that Armstrong didn't get a chance to show what he really had for the "sake of the team". If anything, it would have been the other way around with Bruyneel and Armstrong being so close. From what I understand, Lance's new team will be headed by Bruyneel. Bruyneel had every reason to place Armstrong above Contador when deciding team tactics instead of the other way around. Seems to me that the "team player" stuff was largely spin.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOneexactly
Your take makes little sense to me. When A Schleck went Contador jumped on his wheel and Kloden struggled to stay with Contador with Wiggins on Kloden's wheel and Armstrong behind Wiggins. If anything, it was Kloden who risked taking Wiggins with him.
Seems to me that you might have misinterpreted what the announcers were saying. You gotta remember ...[text shortened]... ther way around. Seems to me that the "team player" stuff was largely spin.
apparently the new team is getting, kloden, hincapie, leipheimer and popovych. pretty much armstrong's old us postal team. will be very interesting to see the tour next year if lance can get a proper winters training in and doesn't suffer any inguries. would still put my money on contodor if he has decent team.
wouldn't be surprised if franck schleck took third place today, would like to see wiggens getting it though he's been unbelievable this year.
I hear the debate here, and I also said some months ago that Lance could not win the Tour because he was too old. I was correct, but I've been absolutely blown away by the fact that he''s still good enough to come third. I think that comes from the mind and his supremely competitive character. He really is a champion. I'm a great admirer of Lance.
Also, by the fact that when he could not keep up in the mountains and when Contador showed himself to be the champion, Lance conceded and then played the domestique role. Ultimately, when the Schleck's played their final card, the only person who could keep with them was Contador. No one else could, and this makes Contador the best on the tour and a worthy champion.
Lance is putting together a new team for next year. It might be a very good team, but Lance himself will not be a contender. But, oh yes, I think he can put a great team together and he will be there leading at the end.
I've not watched the Tour for the last few years, but I was religious this year and for my money it was one of the best ever - with my viewing history going back to the pre-Indurain days.
Originally posted by buffalobillWell, can't say as I'm really an admirer. Seems like he tries to say and do the right things, but I get the sense that most of that's about attempts at PR. Then he'll say or do something that shows his true colors such as this: http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/96014/armstrong-skips-party-honoring-contador
I hear the debate here, and I also said some months ago that Lance could not win the Tour because he was too old. I was correct, but I've been absolutely blown away by the fact that he''s still good enough to come third. I think that comes from the mind and his supremely competitive character. He really is a champion. I'm a great admirer of Lance.
Also ...[text shortened]... it was one of the best ever - with my viewing history going back to the pre-Indurain days.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneHe worked for the team when it was necessary. When the Tour's over there's no big Tour banquet - each team will organise its own event and then move on in the morning. If I were a participant I would feel completely flat and would also want to move on.
Well, can't say as I'm really an admirer. Seems like he tries to say and do the right things, but I get the sense that most of that's about attempts at PR. Then he'll say or do something that shows his true colors such as this: http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/96014/armstrong-skips-party-honoring-contador
Originally posted by buffalobillDid you read the article? It starts off:
He worked for the team when it was necessary. When the Tour's over there's no big Tour banquet - each team will organise its own event and then move on in the morning. If I were a participant I would feel completely flat and would also want to move on.
"Lance Armstrong admitted on Sunday that he did not join his teammates in celebrating Alberto Contador's Tour de France triumph on Saturday night, preferring instead to go for drinks with the backers of his future outfit, Team RadioShack."
It sound like it WAS the team's event that was given SATURDAY night. Listen if he was really "working for the team" as he tries to play it off, then he would have joined his teammates in celebrating the hard won victory by the team. It demonstrates that Armstrong is really about himself. If he was all about the team, he would have celebrated the victory of the team, instead of feeling 'completely flat' about his personal achievement. Note that he wasn't too 'flat' to go out with the backers of his future outfit.
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Originally posted by buffalobillyou were wrong. if lance had a full season of training and competing behind him and wasn't on the same team as contador he would've been a lot closer, possibly even won it. i'm not the biggest fan of lance but you have to credit the guy for being possibly the best competitor the tour has ever seen. he wasn't the main man in his team and he didn't have a full seasons training, that's why he didn't win the tour, 3rd was the best he could hope for imo.
I hear the debate here, and I also said some months ago that Lance could not win the Tour because he was too old. I was correct, but I've been absolutely blown away by the fact that he''s still good enough to come third. I think that comes from the mind and his supremely competitive character. He really is a champion. I'm a great admirer of Lance.
Also ...[text shortened]... it was one of the best ever - with my viewing history going back to the pre-Indurain days.
lance will have a dream team next year and will be a contender...whether or not he will win is another matter but he will be up there if he has an injury free season to prepare, i have no doubt about that. the team time trail could be key next year.
the tour was good this year, the middle week was rank but the third made up for it. i didn't get too see any of last years but 2007 was better than this year imo.
Originally posted by buffalobillUltimately, Lance could not win the tour because Contador was in it. When Contador was able to WIN that last time trial, it showed me that the guy is absolutely dominant. I suspect that if he went into the Tour and for whatever reason needed to win by 7 or 8 minutes or more, he would have been able to do it. The big question is whether Contador would've beaten Lance in his prime - and can Contador maintain his current level over the next 5 (or even 10) years?
I hear the debate here, and I also said some months ago that Lance could not win the Tour because he was too old. I was correct, but I've been absolutely blown away by the fact that he''s still good enough to come third.
I think it's age partially with Lance. Contador's Cadence is tell tale. Lance was always notorious for having the high cadence Honestly it just seemed that Lance did not have the snap he once had. It shows how good he really is just on talent to still place in the Top 3. Contador is 26 man unless his team really sucks next year he should win it. Although I think Lance will once again give all a Good run in next years TDF. Barring injury and good training. I also hope that the specter of doping does not rear it's ugly head. I admit I always think man is that guy on something? When watching the TDF.
Manny
Originally posted by badmoonNo it's not by rule.
I know that I'm quite naive about this sport, nut to me it seems an individual endeavor. Is the Team concept necessary? I mean couldn't one person just take off and win the Tour without it mattering what the team does? Does he have to stay in touch with the team by rule?
You might find the following informative:
http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/tour-101
Here are some excerpts that pertain to your question:
Why do riders race in a pack?
By riding behind other cyclists — called drafting — on a flat road, a rider uses roughly 30 percent less energy than he would riding alone. When the speed is extremely high (in chasing a breakaway or in the final hour of a flat stage), the pack stretches into a single line as each rider fights to stay in the draft created by the fast-moving group.
How does a team worker help his leader?
Although an individual wins the Tour de France, he could not do so without the help of his eight teammates. The duties of a team rider (or “domestique&rdquo😉 include:
* Riding “tempo” at the front of the pack to control the pace and prevent riders from rival teams from advancing up the road
* Riding in front or to the side of the leader to protect him from the wind
* Slowing down or dropping behind the field of riders to fetch fresh water bottles or food from the team car and taking them up to the leader
* Stopping when the leader has a puncture, crash or mechanical problem, and helping pace him back to the peloton
* Giving the leader one of his wheels (or his entire bike!) if the team car doesn’t arrive quickly enough to help
* Pacing the leader up to a threatening breakaway
* Pulling the leader up a mountain climb as long (and fast) as he can, to split up the group, to protect the leader from the wind and to discourage attacks by his rivals