That was a good performance from South Africa. They didn't have to do too much, I have to say. At no point in the game did they look like losing composure as the All Blacks never had them under any pressure at all. They knew what the All Blacks were going to do - and they know that an All Black team has not taken to the field with a "Plan B" for quite some time.
Rugby is a simple game. Some make it look hard. South Africa never had to do anything beyond the basics. If you win a penalty, kick it out and can't regain the ball on your own throw, you will struggle. It is very hard to get field position if you can't do the simple things right.
New Zealand have to go back to the drawing board. The Super 14 is fun to watch, but throwing the ball around like that will not win you games at the highest level. It'll make you look good when you beat Tonga by 70 points, but it won't win at the highest level.
The aim of the game is to win, remember. The World Cup in 2011 is only 2 years away. The coaches have to have a look at the squad and ask themselves "Are these the men who will be around to be the best in 2 years time?" Maybe they are. Maybe they are the best we have, in which case, there is not much we can do (aside from getting a game plan to fit). If they are not though, the coaches need to make some big decisions. This South African team is very good. They are setting the pace in the game but 2 years is a long time. We New Zealanders know all about being the best in the world between World Cups - but the South Africans are currently the best between World Cups & actually hold the damned thing.
It's the Aussies next up in Sydney in 2 weeks time - will be very interesting to see how we cope. Robbie Deans is a smart man and very good coach. Some All Black heads are sagging at the moment. No confidence in their own ability or the ability of the man outside them. It really is a must-win game. They win, they can turn the corner - confidence & momentum are an amazing thing in sport. If they lose, wholesale changes to players &/or coaching staff may be the only option.
Originally posted by Swiss ToniAll the world cup winners had dominant packs, were good at keep the ball in close to the forwards and had slick backlines that didn't drop the ball.
That was a good performance from South Africa. They didn't have to do too much, I have to say. At no point in the game did they look like losing composure as the All Blacks never had them under any pressure at all. They knew what the All Blacks were going to do - and they know that an All Black team has not taken to the field with a "Plan B" for quite som ...[text shortened]... If they lose, wholesale changes to players &/or coaching staff may be the only option.
SA look the part in every department.
NZ is in a huge hole which can only be fixed by the unions changing the leadership and sacking the leaders involved in this debacle from chairman to coach. I feel sorry for some of the players under this leadership it's not their fault.
We need Sir Brian and Sir Pinetree to call for revolt..it's Bastille time for Rugby NZ HQ...
This is the first time I have ever seen the All Blacks make so many professional fouls and constant negative play. The bok pressure drove them to desperate measures, but I really expected more of the ABs, as they always played with honour - even in defeat.
Disgusting.
At least the boks had a ref who punished the opposition for their fouls for a change.
I think the penalty count tells the full story here. Any time a team gets totally outplayed, they concede penalties, as a desperate last hope of trying to get back into the game. New Zealand is no different from any other team in world rugby. Look at any games South Africa have been dominated in and you will see a similar penalty count. Look at a game England got dominated in. Or France. Or Australia. They are all the same.
I do find it a bit rich though that a South African tries to use that as a dig. We all know about South African dicipline. 53-3 at Twickenham. Say no more.
Originally posted by Swiss ToniWhy do you lot (on these forums) always believe I come from the point of view that SA rugby players are friggin angels?
I think the penalty count tells the full story here. Any time a team gets totally outplayed, they concede penalties, as a desperate last hope of trying to get back into the game. New Zealand is no different from any other team in world rugby. Look at any games South Africa have been dominated in and you will see a similar penalty count. Look at a game Eng ...[text shortened]... o use that as a dig. We all know about South African dicipline. 53-3 at Twickenham. Say no more.
Jesus, when a bok player does something as bad as I saw the All Black team do this weekend, I'll call him on it. But why should I hold my tongue just because 'we' have been guilty of something before, hmmmm?
This was no dig, I've just never seen the All Blacks stoop to this level where English rugby (skill levels and attitude)usually lingers.
Originally posted by Swiss ToniCrowley is a big fella haha he can hack it..
Sorry dude. I don't know you nor am I overly active in the forums. I'm sure you call it as you see it.
just never listen to him on the subject of refs haha!! (Thats a dig..sorry :p)
Welcome to the forum and enjoy it we can all do with a fresh scribe.
The ABs were totally woeful... I'm really struggling in this era under Henry.
I do truly hope Aus thrashes them... Henry and his backers must be sailing close to the wind.
I feel sorry for the players.. this is squarely down to poor coaching.
Well I was so frustrated after this game so I'm just going to throw antogonism out there... 🙂
We got thrashed. At halftime I do remember thinking Sa 6 NZ 10 and Nigel Owens 19. (when will we get a southern hemisphere referee for these games?) He was way ahead on the scoreboard. I usually think I am pretty partial (don't we all) but he was making some stuff up. The first two shots at goal from both teams shouldn't have been penalties. Isaac Ross should not have been binned. Or at the very least, SA's try was made in exactly the same manner, so they should have been down one more too (and obviously no points). Our scrum was totally dominated (at that time) but the ball was still in there.
And I'll never understand the front row... good work by SA to disrupt that as much as possible.
Second half, ref was better, and we were never in it. SA dominant.
Just as TD and I were discussing, the AB's basic handling is woeful. Their defence was ok though... Penalties always given away, but you can throw a few of them just to home ground advantage - the same way you can take penalties away from the AB's.
We need a leading captain. Richie doesn't talk to the ref enough, something that I always hated gregan for, but he was brilliant at it. Wouldn't have anyone else in the number 7, but Richie's not showing enough leadership out there.
While I'm at it, I want a new halfback with all three qualities that TD mentioned, a wing bigger and faster than Jonah was, Dan Carter back, a hooker that can throw straight, and everyone to wear gloves with super glue on.
Unfortunately only one of those is going to happen, and who wants to put money on him being in the AB's squad after this weekend's round against Auckland.
Originally posted by abighamHehe, it was good to see a ref making dubious calls both ways for a change, but at least he was consistent.
I usually think I am pretty partial (don't we all) but he was making some stuff up. The first two shots at goal from both teams shouldn't have been penalties. Isaac Ross should not have been binned. Or at the very least, SA's try was made in exactly the same manner, so they should have been down one more too (and obviously no points). Our scrum was total ...[text shortened]... much as possible.
Second half, ref was better, and we were never in it. SA dominant.
Ross should have been binned and good on the ref for doing what refs are there for: dish out the proper punishment no matter what stage of the game we are in. Same with Botha.
If you play negatively in order to stop a team's momentum when they are looking to score you get binned. Period.
Too many times we see refs only giving BS warnings just because a game has just gotten underway where they should just bin a player.
Pietersen's yellow was actually the most dubious, but I can live with it, even though I wasn't convinced it was a "try saving foul" as there were two other defenders right there 😕
The try was fine. The flanker and 8th man had broken their bind, so the scrum was over.
Originally posted by CrowleyI thought Pieterson deserved binning for the tackle, he never looked at going for the ball and all tackle, it was dangerous. I thought Botha was unlucky to be binned though. I actually had no complaints about the second half, but maybe thats where my frustration at our ineptness took over and I was just resigned to the inevitable.
Hehe, it was good to see a ref making dubious calls both ways for a change, but at least he was consistent.
Ross should have been binned and good on the ref for doing what refs are there for: dish out the proper punishment no matter what stage of the game we are in. Same with Botha.
If you play negatively in order to stop a team's momentum when they a ...[text shortened]...
The try was fine. The flanker and 8th man had broken their bind, so the scrum was over.
I felt Ross's sinbinning was just a way to even things up. Ball was out and Ross did well.
Sometimes it feels like ref's blow things up just because it 'looks' wrong.
I heard somewhere that two refs was being thought about - or it might be just an idea that was thrown out there?. I'd hate to think of two refs getting things wrong consistently! It has worked well in rugby league though, though theres more interpretation to the rucks, mauls etc, in rugby. Not sure what they talk about in SA re: getting the correct calls made - or is rugy destined to be a lottery in rucks, mauls and scrums?
Must be so frustrating for everyone involved.
Originally posted by abighamDef go along with two refs and dump the third ref.. leave it them to c'ck it up on the field and it would speed things up again ( too many third refs watch the angle and make wrong decisions anyway)
I thought Pieterson deserved binning for the tackle, he never looked at going for the ball and all tackle, it was dangerous. I thought Botha was unlucky to be binned though. I actually had no complaints about the second half, but maybe thats where my frustration at our ineptness took over and I was just resigned to the inevitable.
I felt Ross's sinbinni ...[text shortened]... to be a lottery in rucks, mauls and scrums?
Must be so frustrating for everyone involved.
Realistically we won't see henry dumped. He see'd nothing wrong with the situo and will just keep rotating en mass.
We need desperately to harden and tighten the eight, they must win the all their own scrums, work at retention of phase ball and get The Whetton twins back to coach the line out because the aussie g it has no idea at all.
I believe Cowan is the one to play a similar game to Marshall around the eight and taking the ball back into the tight. We absolutely must perfect this to stand a chance at winning anything. Without dominance in the eight forget the rest of the team because we'll be ball starved again and again.
In the back line I'd stick with Cowan and Donald but shift Carter to 2/5 with Smith at Centre. Roco and Sivi ? for me they're gone Jayne and Kahui for me on the wings.. they turn, have the ball skills lacking for so long on the nz wings and have several variations in the way they gap find. Wingers don't have to be the big meaty type of the modern era.. we need a terry wright to outright beat em with skill and a JK to step and run.
Originally posted by abighamRucks are a mess and I don't see an easy way forward.
I thought Pieterson deserved binning for the tackle, he never looked at going for the ball and all tackle, it was dangerous. I thought Botha was unlucky to be binned though. I actually had no complaints about the second half, but maybe thats where my frustration at our ineptness took over and I was just resigned to the inevitable.
I felt Ross's sinbinni ...[text shortened]... to be a lottery in rucks, mauls and scrums?
Must be so frustrating for everyone involved.
I like that refs do a lot more talking so players know where they stand at a breakdown, but some refs are basically coaching, which is BS, because then the offending player has slowed the ball down already.
Refs need to loudly call ruck / maul, only twice and should then penalise.
1st offence - penalty
2nd offence - penalty & team warning
3rd offence - penalty and yellow card
Easy as that.
Two refs are not necessary IMHO - but it's worth a shot. Only one should have a whistle, the 'assistant' ref should just be in radio contact.
They'll be well organised, better structured, won't drop the ball but I suspect will struggle to get much ball. Having no chance to win the line outs they'll mess them up .. will be a torrid scrappy time along the lines.
Any loose ball collected will have to be moved quickly before the SA ruck it.. cos they are grabbing ball for themselves very well at the mo imo. Aussies will retain through quick phases.
PDV having a poke at the aus scrum cheats.. it is true they have been getting away with collapsing the scrum and blaming the opposition for years (since the 80s) lol they learned it from the poms.
Could be close but favour SA by 8-12pts.