Originally posted by tomtom232Maybe... But isn't desire also a source of joy and happiness? I often find that looking forward to and thinking and dreaming of something nice is rewarding in itself, sometimes more so than the actual event.
Is this true? At least in western culture? I have thought about this quite a bit
and want to know your thoughts. It seems to me that the more we desire the more we suffer...so I believe this is true...(especially in relationships 🙁 )
Originally posted by NordlysAren't you truly happy when you desire nothing more? The reasoning would be that you have everything you need to be happy thus you desire nothing.
Maybe... But isn't desire also a source of joy and happiness? I often find that looking forward to and thinking and dreaming of something nice is rewarding in itself, sometimes more so than the actual event.
Originally posted by tomtom232But desire is an inextricable part of obtaining what you need to be happy. What you're really saying is that if you have everything you need to be happy, you'll be happy. That's just a tautology. Blaming desire for encouraging you to be happy is @rse about tit.
Aren't you truly happy when you desire nothing more? The reasoning would be that you have everything you need to be happy thus you desire nothing.
Try taking away desire, what's left? No happiness because there's nothing to fulfill? I'd suggest that the cause of human suffering is being human, it's bound up in what we are. We wouldn't be human if we didn't desire, we'd be automatons.
Originally posted by StarrmanI think the definition of desire we are looking at here is to wish, long for or crave...not just to want something which is what you are really talking about here.
But desire is an inextricable part of obtaining what you need to be happy. What you're really saying is that if you have everything you need to be happy, you'll be happy. That's just a tautology. Blaming desire for encouraging you to be happy is @rse about tit.
Try taking away desire, what's left? No happiness because there's nothing to fulfill? I'd ...[text shortened]... ound up in what we are. We wouldn't be human if we didn't desire, we'd be automatons.
Originally posted by tomtom232I'm sorry, i don't understand. I'm making no distinction between definitions of desire. If there is something that you need to be happy, then that need is desire.
I think the definition of desire we are looking at here is to wish, long for or crave...not just to want something which is what you are really talking about here.
Originally posted by StarrmanAnyway, Just because it is needed to be happy does not mean that it can't also be the cause of suffering.
I'm sorry, i don't understand. I'm making no distinction between definitions of desire. If there is something that you need to be happy, then that need is desire.
Originally posted by tomtom232But it's not desire that's the problem, it's not getting what you need to be happy which is the problem. You're blaming the driving force for happiness for those that are unhappy.
Anyway, Just because it is needed to be happy does not mean that it can't also be the cause of suffering.
Originally posted by StarrmanNay, my friend, with all good things there comes bad with them...so the very fact that desire is NEEDED to be happy, as you say, would also mean that it causes much suffering when that desire is not fulfilled...not getting something would not be a problem if there was no desire to get said thing.
But it's not desire that's the problem, it's not getting what you need to be happy which is the problem. You're blaming the driving force for happiness for those that are unhappy.
Originally posted by tomtom232If nothing was needed to be happy, there wouldn't be a state of unhappiness or happiness, as everyone would be in the same state all the time. So what you're talking about is a world without desire and without happiness or unhappiness. That's a world which would have no pressures to act or succeed, no opinions etc. That's a nonsensical world.
Nay, my friend, with all good things there comes bad with them...so the very fact that desire is NEEDED to be happy, as you say, would also mean that it causes much suffering when that desire is not fulfilled...not getting something would not be a problem if there was no desire to get said thing.
What causes much suffering is not the desire, it's the lack of fulfillment, as you have yourself just stated, but you draw a different conclusion thereafter. I don't see how you can say unfulfillment is the reason for unhappiness and then blame desire.
Originally posted by StarrmanI am not talking about living life without desire, you seem to think I am, I am merely speculating whether or not desire causes suffering which I believe it does and again the lack of fulfillment would not be a problem if there was no desire for that fulfillment, but there could still be desire for other things, I am not talking about a world without desire and I am not talking about whether or not we would be better off without desire.
If nothing was needed to be happy, there wouldn't be a state of unhappiness or happiness, as everyone would be in the same state all the time. So what you're talking about is a world without desire and without happiness or unhappiness. That's a world which would have no pressures to act or succeed, no opinions etc. That's a nonsensical world.
What cau ...[text shortened]... n't see how you can say unfulfillment is the reason for unhappiness and then blame desire.
Originally posted by tomtom232Your post makes no sense, how can there be "no desire for fulfillment, but there could still be a desire for other things"? All desire is a generating force which requires fulfillment. I really have no idea what your argument is. If you need something to make you happy and unhappiness is the result of not getting what you need, how can that be the fault of the need? It must be that you are not fulfilled which brings about unhappiness.
I am not talking about living life without desire, you seem to think I am, I am merely speculating whether or not desire causes suffering which I believe it does and again the lack of fulfillment would not be a problem if there was no desire for that fulfillment, but there could still be desire for other things, I am not talking about a world without desire and I am not talking about whether or not we would be better off without desire.
Anything that has no desires is a non-entity.
One can desire something even while that desire is being fulfilled: for example, as I chew a piece of tart, sweet apple, I desire that flavor and tactile sensation even through this desire is being fulfilled.
One can have some unfulfilled desires and still be happy. I might like to climb Everest to the summit, but that doesn't mean that unless and until I do so I am doomed to unhappiness.
What determines happiness and unhappiness is the presence or absence of pleasant and unpleasant conditions. The exact kind, degree, and mixture of such conditions will determine the relative happiness or unhappiness of the individual, according to that individual's intrinsic nature. The further away an individual is from his natural state, the less happy he will be. By "natural state" I do not refer to some atavistic state, but rather to the set of circumstances conducive to happiness for a particular individual at a particular time in that individual's development, as well as to the progression of that development (personal change) along natural lines. To the extent that one's environment and/or personal development (and the former generally influences the latter) deviate from the natural state, that individual will be less happy than he would otherwise be; and if the deviation is sufficient, he will be unhappy, and more unhappy the greater the deviation is.
This does not imply, for example, that the natural state of serial killers is committing horrible, wanton murders. That is nobody's natural state. However, the odd behaviors misattributed to human wickedness are in fact merely the behaviors of pseudo-sentient, defective imitations. Nothing in the appearance or "history" of the world should be taken at face value, since there is no reality behind it. I occupy my own universe and I am the sole inhabitant there. My universe consists solely of sensory experiences of the type I refer to as "external". Those sensory experiences are figments. Mechanical causality is a fraud in my universe, since the figments cannot and do not interact by means of it, being figments.
Originally posted by tomtom232I can be truly happy while desiring something, and I am not necessarily happy when I don't have any current desires.
Aren't you truly happy when you desire nothing more? The reasoning would be that you have everything you need to be happy thus you desire nothing.