A Question for the Evangelists

Originally posted by knapperja
The Jewish friends I have told me they don't believe in an afterlife. I didn't research it further than that.

That much is clear. Then don't make a generalization. The belief in afterlife or the lack theref has NOTHING to do with jesus for a Jew.

Feivel

Originally posted by pcaspian
Originally posted by knapperja
[b]My understanding is there was no afterlife before Christ. Jewish people do not believe in an afterlife because they don't feel Jesus was the Messiah.

Isaaih prophecised about Jesus, unfortunitely not many understood it. Those born before the death and ressurection would be preached to for 3 days after Jesu ...[text shortened]... wlegeable about God, Jesus and Heaven. Read a little about Isaiah, Ilisha, Moses even.

cheers[/b]

And I suppose you can show that through references in the old testament? You are telling me what a commentary and the new testament says. Tell you what, let's make believe there is no new testament. Now show us how Isaiah, Elijah, Noah, Moses, Abraham et al. knew of jesus. Please show us and good luck with your attempt. I am sure there are many people here that would like you to succeed and to be truthful I would really like to see you succeed so lets see...

Feivel

Originally posted by Feivel
And I suppose you can show that through references in the old testament? You are telling me what a commentary and the new testament says. Tell you what, let's make believe there is no new testament. Now show us how Isaiah, Elijah, Noah, Moses, Abraham et al. knew of jesus. Please show us and good luck with your attempt. I am sure there are many people here ...[text shortened]... ou to succeed and to be truthful I would really like to see you succeed so lets see...

Feivel

Feivel: "and to be truthful I would really like to see you succeed so lets see... "


🙂


??

Originally posted by Feivel
That much is clear. Then don't make a generalization. The belief in afterlife or the lack theref has NOTHING to do with jesus for a Jew.

Feivel

The belief in an afterlife is to occur after the messiah, which the jews do not think was Jesus. That has EVERYTHING to do with it. They don't think the messiah has come yet, and until then, no afterlife. Since they feel Jesus was an ordinary guy, not a messiah, they continue to wait. That is how they are related.

Originally posted by knapperja
The belief in an afterlife is to occur after the messiah, which the jews do not think was Jesus. That has EVERYTHING to do with it. They don't think the messiah has come yet, and until then, no afterlife. Since they feel Jesus was an ordinary guy, not a messiah, they continue to wait. That is how they are related.

Knapperja,

That is not the case. Many Jews believe in reincarnation. I guess you don't consider reincarnation an afterlife? Also, many Jews do feel the messiah came. Only difference is that while christianity thinks it is jesus (and that he is divine), the Jews do not see jesus as the messiah nor do they consider the messiah to be divine. As a matter of fact I ask you to show me anywhere within Jewish writing or the bible that says anything about the messiah being divine. That is an invention of other religions that christianity "stole."

Feivel

Originally posted by Feivel
Knapperja,

That is not the case. Many Jews believe in reincarnation. I guess you don't consider reincarnation an afterlife? Also, many Jews do feel the messiah came. Only difference is that while christianity thinks it is jesus (and that he is divine), the Jews do not see jesus as the messiah nor do they consider the messiah to be divine. As a matter of f ...[text shortened]... iah being divine. That is an invention of other religions that christianity "stole."

Feivel

Who was this jewish messiah you speak of? I would like to ask my jewish friends about that. They had never mentioned reincarnation.

I suppose there are as many jewish beliefs as christian ones, I just haven't met enough of them. For example, the mormons believe each mormon couple will rule a planet as a god during the afterlife, but it would be false to claim all christians believe it.

Originally posted by knapperja
Who was this jewish messiah you speak of? I would like to ask my jewish friends about that. They had never mentioned reincarnation.

I suppose there are as many jewish beliefs as christian ones, I just haven't met enough of them. For example, the mormons believe each mormon couple will rule a planet as a god during the afterlife, but it would be false to claim all christians believe it.

To name one ask them about Menachem Scneerson 🙂

Feivel

Originally posted by knapperja
My understanding is there was no afterlife before Christ. Jewish people do not believe in an afterlife because they don't feel Jesus was the Messiah.

Well, in the OT there is mention of a Sheol, where the spirits reside after death. Sometimes it seems as though Sheol is just synonymous with death or the state of being dead. In the intertestamental period, however, some Jewish authors mention divisions within Sheol, some reserved for the righteous and some for the wicked. So, it is at least debatable whether there is a tradition of belief in the afterlife among the Jews prior to the New Testament.

Originally posted by bbarr
Well, in the OT there is mention of a Sheol, where the spirits reside after death. Sometimes it seems as though Sheol is just synonymous with death or the state of being dead. In the intertestamental period, however, some Jewish authors mention divisions within Sheol, some reserved for the righteous and some for the wicked. So, it is at least debatable whether there is a tradition of belief in the afterlife among the Jews prior to the New Testament.

Bennett,

Now bring up the Guff 🙂

Feivel

Originally posted by Feivel
You read Genesis and found only one creation account? Which did it have 1:1-2:3 missing or was it 2:4-25?

[b]And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own ...[text shortened]... e same accounts or are you beginning to see the bible isn't all it's made out to be?

Feivel

Satan sure as you fooled

Originally posted by RBHILL
Satan sure as you fooled

Wow...thank you Hellboy., your gonna have your own spot in heaven so you think your alone up there...that's what god told me. BTW, if all of us non-christians are going to be in hell, heaven is going to be really boring 🙂

Feivel

Originally posted by RBHILL
Satan sure as you fooled

Why does satan have me fooled? I quoted those passages from the bible. Are you now telling us the bible is an invention of satan?

Feivel

Originally posted by bbarr
Did Kierkegaard portray Abraham's decision as simple? If I remember correctly, K. presents version after version of the story, trying to get it right. In some, A. struggles with the command and rages against the unfairness of it. In some, A. blithely accepts God's command. K. suggests that all his attempts at reconstruction are flawed, as K. is merely a ...[text shortened]... to wither. We should all try to be better at staying on topic, especially in the debate forum.

Hate to interrupt the flamewar, but since bbarr asked:

I didn't mean to imply Kierkegaard portrayed Abraham's decision as simple. That was me editorializing a bit on the biblical version of the story. I was trying to point out that some spiritual decisions are not hard from a logical point of view (God says do it, you do it), but are extremely difficult emotionally.

I think Kierkegaard's (and my) frustration comes from two interrelated issues: communicability and authentication.

Communicability: If you do what God says, how can you demonstrate to society that you're not just a nutcase? What possible evidence can you provide to defend your actions?

Authentication: When Abraham (or Job, or any of the prophets) communicated with God, how did he know he was talking to God and not a maevolent demon or alien? How could he know?

I think this is why the evangelists on the site get flamed so ferociously. If you sincerely believe you have a powerful personal relationship with the Almighty, the desire to share that experience must be overwhelming. But by its very nature, it impossible to provide objective evidence of the experience, or any nonpersonal support of its spiritual validity.

Kierkegaard: "Who gave strength to Abraham's arm? Who held his right hand up so it did not fall limp at his side? He who gazes at this becomes paralyzed. Who gave strength to Abraham's soul, so that his eyes did not grow dim, so that he saw neither Isaac nor the ram? He who gazes at this becomes blind."

Originally posted by Feivel
Bennett,

Now bring up the Guff 🙂

Feivel

'Guf' is a word found in Talmudic literature, and refers to a place where souls reside prior to being incarnated. I remember one self-proclaimed Christian (Jehova's Witness perhaps (?)) arguing that once the Guf was empty, the second-coming (or first, depending on how you feel about that stuff) of Christ would take place. I'm not sure where she got this, but I think it was from the Demi Moore movie "The Seventh Seal".

Originally posted by bbarr
'Guf' is a word found in Talmudic literature, and refers to a place where souls reside prior to being incarnated. I remember one self-proclaimed Christian (Jehova's Witness perhaps (?)) arguing that once the Guf was empty, the second-coming (or first, depending on how you feel about that stuff) of Christ would take place. I'm not sure where she got this, ...[text shortened]... d to avoid Christians when I was younger, because Christians killed and ate a family I knew...😉

Thanks Bennett 😀

Feivel