Americas K-12 problem

Originally posted by Melanerpes
One of the things that make universities strong is that the weakest students usually don't attend them. Or they drop out quickly. But we do require that everyone has to get a K-12 education.

Actually - your free market plan would solve this. If you're setting up a free market K-12 school, you'll have to avoid the students who are poor, have learning di ...[text shortened]... a much higher level and everyone could remark about how much better the system has become.

When half of people don't graduate, the riff raff isn't getting an education anyway.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I'll admit that the American education system by turning out people as willfully ignorant of reality as most right wingers has done a poor job. But exclusive reliance on private schools, many of whom don't even want to teach basic science facts like evolution, would be far worse.

It would probably be a good idea not to have so many studen ...[text shortened]... s would accomplish this and greatly reduce the time wasted on discipline and security matters.

politicians are SOOOOO worried about OUR children that they put THEIR children in private schools in DC, the better to concentrate on OUR problems.

why can't the teachers unions get the politicians to put their kids in public schools? have they even tried?

Originally posted by Sam The Sham
America spends a fortune trying to beat a dead horse and teach the unteachable.

After the age of 15 they should drop those that won't learn or can't learn, instead of keeping them in High School until they are 22 years old, foolishy trying to teach them to read , write, and do arithmetic at the level we would expect from a small child.

No other country does it why does America?

Not quite right Sam. We aren't still trying to simply teach those kids to read, write and do arithmetic. In math we expect those kids to be able to handle Algebra and Geometry. We pretend that simply becaused they are old enough to take the class, they have the skills to succeed. They expect the same kind of thing in English classes.

The problem is with the politicians and judges. You can't hold kids back because it hurts their feelings. Parents have the right to move a kid along no matter what the school says. The courts back the parents.

State and Federal politicians say that kids must pass three years of advanced level math to graduate from high school. We pretend the kids are ready for those classes so that we can raise the standards! They are making kids take classes that have the advanced names! If the kids are ready or not, they are put into those classes.

It is a horrible system in which you do the best to work within the framework.

Originally posted by quackquack
It may seem obvious but the number one factor of success in school is the student. It is easier to blame teachers and unions then it is blame the people who refuse to do homework, listen in class. Where I taught students simply did not care enough about learning and as a result their score lagged. Certainly some teachers are better than others. But e trying to get kids to focus it probably isn't their fault that the kids learn less either.

Yes -- perhaps the biggest factor in creating a successful school is getting the students Motivated. Once you accomplish that, the rest is relatively easy. If you have a class of highly Motivated students, you could just hand them a text book and a list of assignments, offer to help anyone who requests it, do nothing else, and you'd probably end up with reasonably good results.

So ultimately, that's what the education debate should be focused on. How do you get a bunch of children or teenagers who'd rather be anywhere else than in that classroom to actually WANT to learn? Or how do you convince them that the things being taught are relevant to what's happening in their own lives? This is actually quite a challenge even when the students come from affluent communities with functional homes and well-educated and attentive parents.

As such, I would define a great teacher as first and foremost, someone who is a great Motivator. Pretty much everyone can remember a few teachers like that. You actually looked forward to it and actually hated it if something forced you to miss a class. So we need to focus on what qualities these teachers have, and then develop training techniques and hiring that gives preference to these qualities.

Originally posted by Melanerpes
Yes -- perhaps the biggest factor in creating a successful school is getting the students Motivated. Once you accomplish that, the rest is relatively easy. If you have a class of highly Motivated students, you could just hand them a text book and a list of assignments, offer to help anyone who requests it, do nothing else, and you'd probably end up with r ...[text shortened]... e, and then develop training techniques and hiring that gives preference to these qualities.

probably hiring a few Motivators per school would have a better chance.

AND tying in computer games with schoolwork.

but that last bit might put some people out of work. can't have that.

Originally posted by zeeblebot
politicians are SOOOOO worried about OUR children that they put THEIR children in private schools in DC, the better to concentrate on OUR problems.

why can't the teachers unions get the politicians to put their kids in public schools? have they even tried?

That is why they oppose vouchers. They simply don't want the poor minorities mingling with their precious children.

Originally posted by Melanerpes
Yes -- perhaps the biggest factor in creating a successful school is getting the students Motivated. Once you accomplish that, the rest is relatively easy. If you have a class of highly Motivated students, you could just hand them a text book and a list of assignments, offer to help anyone who requests it, do nothing else, and you'd probably end up with r ...[text shortened]... e, and then develop training techniques and hiring that gives preference to these qualities.

I agree that teachers should try to be interesting and create their classes in such a way that students want to be part of the process. If you walk through most schools you can see that some teachers are more suceessfully at that than others. But, if you know that the problem is motivation -- then let's be accuarate and place most of the blame on our failing schools where it belongs -- on the student who refuses to do what it takes to be successful. Motiavation is not a money issue, voucher issuer or union issue. It is a student issue and a family/ societal expectation issue.
I always did well in school because it was expected from myself and my parents. Kids/ families have other priorities including being late to school because they take care of their siblings, working instead of studying, talking instead of listening, on vacation instead of in school.

Originally posted by whodey
They simply don't want the poor minorities mingling with their precious children.

I fear that this might be one of those things that liberals and conservatives might strongly agree on (as much as they might protest otherwise).

Originally posted by quackquack
I agree that teachers should try to be interesting and create their classes in such a way that students want to be part of the process. If you walk through most schools you can see that some teachers are more suceessfully at that than others. But, if you know that the problem is motivation -- then let's be accuarate and place most of the blame on our fa ...[text shortened]... s, working instead of studying, talking instead of listening, on vacation instead of in school.

But if we're talking about how to improve the schools and teachers, we need to accept the hands they've been dealt and figure out what is the best way for the education system to play those cards. Obviously, its not fair to blame everything on the school - but we can still look for ways that schools can better handle students with motivation issues.

Of course, we also need to look at ways to improve the functioning of families and communities, and ways to reduce drug abuse, crime, gang membership, and other ills but these are different topics - unless we're discussing ways in which the education system can directly affect these things.

Originally posted by Melanerpes
But if we're talking about how to improve the schools and teachers, we need to accept the hands they've been dealt and figure out what is the best way for the education system to play those cards. Obviously, its not fair to blame everything on the school - but we can still look for ways that schools can better handle students with motivation issues.

Of ...[text shortened]... unless we're discussing ways in which the education system can directly affect these things.

I have ideas. I believe this would be enough to make improvements and we should not worry about the effects of those who do not take school seriously anyway.

(1) We should not offer any governmental services for people of a certain age who do not graduate high school. If you want school to be important it should have monetary consequences. Realistically you can't contribute to society without a diploma so society should not be obliged to support you.
(2) Attendance is important. The should be automatic failure (and removal from the roster for at least the semester/ year) for people who do not have a medical excuse but have too much absences. You can't go to jail (or vacation) for a month, come back and be anything but disruptive.
(3) Schools should be able to permanently remove those who are disruptive. Whether you bring in weapons or continually disrupt the education of others no one should have the right to interfere with the education of others.

Originally posted by quackquack
I have ideas. I believe this would be enough to make improvements and we should not worry about the effects of those who do not take school seriously anyway.

(1) We should not offer any governmental services for people of a certain age who do not graduate high school. If you want school to be important it should have monetary consequences. Realisti he education of others no one should have the right to interfere with the education of others.

Children are generally not going to take school seriously unless someone motivates them or forces them. In most cases, parents do a decent job.

I can understand that we should hold adults (such as college students) accountable for the consequences of their actions, but someone who is 8 yrs old can't be expected to understand the consequences of "not taking school seriously". If the kid's parents aren't willing or able to do this, someone else has to step in.

I do agree, however, that maintaining discipline throughout the school is THE number one priority for any school principal. Without discipline, even the best teachers have little hope of succeeding. Without discipline, even those students who are very motivated will not learn much.

So I would propose that students who are unwilling to obey basic rules or attend class on something of a regular basis should be required to go to a special discipline school where sufficient resources are available to ensure that even the most incorrigible children will behave. The mere existence of such a place and the real chance that one might be sent there should be sufficient to get almost everyone to follow the rules. The ones who can't will find out the hard way.

Originally posted by Melanerpes
Children are generally not going to take school seriously unless someone motivates them or forces them. In most cases, parents do a decent job.

I can understand that we should hold adults (such as college students) accountable for the consequences of their actions, but someone who is 8 yrs old can't be expected to understand the consequences of "not t ...[text shortened]... to get almost everyone to follow the rules. The ones who can't will find out the hard way.

Right now in New York City (and I imagine other urban areas) they keep closing down failing schools. Then they re-open new ones and get the same results. This doesn't hold students or parents responsible.

But no one wants to say that a community has failed to have its priorites straight. It is just false to blame the school and although no one likes to take blame, but the truth is communities need to look in the mirror and see that until they change their value system schools will not make up for their deficiencies.;

Originally posted by quackquack
Right now in New York City (and I imagine other urban areas) they keep closing down failing schools. Then they re-open new ones and get the same results. This doesn't hold students or parents responsible.

But no one wants to say that a community has failed to have its priorites straight. It is just false to blame the school and although no one likes ...[text shortened]... see that until they change their value system schools will not make up for their deficiencies.;

How many of these schools make discipline the number one priority? Or are these education systems infected with a culture where "rules" and "punishment" are considered to be dirty words?

Originally posted by sh76
Fine. Decrease the subsidy on a sliding scale for high incomes. Whatever. That's not the point.

The point is that public administration of schools, especially inner city schools has, by and large, been a disaster. Let private companies compete for voucher dollars and they'll be more efficient and earn better results than the bureaucrats who have their cushy ...[text shortened]... ?

How long would that zoo... I mean school, last if it was subject to private competition?

Your trust in massive corporate welfare as a solution to the problem is touching.

Originally posted by Melanerpes
How many of these schools make discipline the number one priority? Or are these education systems infected with a culture where "rules" and "punishment" are considered to be dirty words?

If you have a school where "discipline is the number one priority" you've already lost the game.