Debates
29 May 10
29 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungI've already mentioned the MPLA, Unita, FLAC, etc, each of which considered themselves the rightful rulers of Angola and had their own armed forces.
Who did the Angolan Defense Forces answer to in 1975?
Please disabuse yourself of the notion that there was a united entity called Angola in 1975.
In a sense, 'civil war' is a misnomer because the country was not united to begin with, and so could not be said to be at war with itself. But that's taking hairsplitting to offensive extremes.
29 May 10
Originally posted by Bosse de NageIn my mind Angola was born when the Alvor Agreement was signed in January of 1975. Why am I incorrect?
I've already mentioned the MPLA, Unita, FLAC, etc, each of which considered themselves the rightful rulers of Angola and had their own armed forces.
Please disabuse yourself of the notion that there was a united entity called Angola in 1975.
In a sense, 'civil war' is a misnomer because the country was not united to begin with, and so could not be said to be at war with itself. But that's taking hairsplitting to offensive extremes.
29 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungBecause the Alvor Agreement was not effective.
In my mind Angola was born when the Alvor Agreement was signed in January of 1975. Why am I incorrect?
"The Alvor Agreement, signed on January 15, 1975, granted Angola independence from Portugal on November 11, ending the war for independence while marking the transition to civil war. The agreement, signed by the MPLA, the FNLA, UNITA, and the Portuguese government, was never signed by the Front for the Liberation of the Enclave of Cabinda or Eastern Revolt as the other parties excluded them from negotiations. The coalition government established by the Alvor Agreement soon fell as nationalist factions, doubting one another's commitment to the peace process, tried to take control of the colony by force."
A bunch of warlords failed to run the country between them and opted to fight it out instead.
Ask yourself whether the signing of a document is enough to create a united country.
29 May 10
Originally posted by Bosse de NageWhat I see there is that Angola declared an intention to annex a neighboring province as it's first official act, triggering a war.
Because the Alvor Agreement was not effective.
"The Alvor Agreement, signed on January 15, 1975, granted Angola independence from Portugal on November 11, [b]ending the war for independence while marking the transition to civil war. The agreement, signed by the MPLA, the FNLA, UNITA, and the Portuguese government, was never signed by the Fro ...[text shortened]... one another's commitment to the peace process, tried to take control of the colony by force."
29 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Bosse de NageThe Alvor Agreement was a major joke. At the time anyone that only had a tangential knowledge of all that was at play in Angola knew that it was bound to fail.
Because the Alvor Agreement was not effective.
"The Alvor Agreement, signed on January 15, 1975, granted Angola independence from Portugal on November 11, ending the war for independence while marking the transition to civil war. The agreement, signed by the MPLA, the FNLA, UNITA, and the Portuguese government, was never signed by the Fro one another's commitment to the peace process, tried to take control of the colony by force."
29 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungA 'neighbouring province'? The province is inside Angola. One talks of neighbouring countries, not neighbouring provinces.
What I see there is that Angola declared an intention to annex a neighboring province as it's first official act, triggering a war.
I don't know what's preventing you from seeing the obvious, but I'm going to give it a rest now.
But to reiterate: there was no Angolan Defence Force in 1975, just the forces of various independence movements.
29 May 10
Originally posted by Bosse de NageCabinda is outside Angola to be honest. It is an exclave. But this is the one thing ATY has right on all the crap he's been saying so far.
A 'neighbouring province'? The province is inside Angola. One talks of neighbouring countries, not neighbouring provinces.
I don't know what's preventing you from seeing the obvious, but I'm going to give it a rest now.
29 May 10
Originally posted by Bosse de NageGabinda is an exclave of Angola! The Congo separates them! Over the river and through the woods!
A 'neighbouring province'? The province is inside Angola. One talks of neighbouring countries, not neighbouring provinces.
I don't know what's preventing you from seeing the obvious, but I'm going to give it a rest now.
29 May 10
Originally posted by AThousandYoungBecause there was never a stable government. "Civil War" broke out at independence ... but as pointed out "Civil War" is incorrect as there was no unified country.
In my mind Angola was born when the Alvor Agreement was signed in January of 1975. Why am I incorrect?
Shame on you Portugal!
29 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoungOK, 'enclave' is the correct term. But your interpretation of what happened in 1975 -- that 'the government of Angola declared war on Cabinda, thus precipitating the civil war' -- is simply incorrect.
Gabinda is an exclave of Angola! The Congo separates them! Over the river and through the woods!
Got to go ... May enlightenment strike you gently.
29 May 10
Originally posted by Bosse de NageOk. The non sequitur in the OP just made not want to provide anything meaningful to this thread.
If ATY can be got to see clear on this issue, it would be an important breakthrough! He is a teacher, after all.
I do wish I could have your patience and I'm here wishing you luck.
29 May 10
Originally posted by adam warlockWell come on, don't be so standoffish. What are the conditions like in Angola today?
Ok. The non sequitur in the OP just made not want to provide anything meaningful to this thread.
I do wish I could have your patience and I'm here wishing you luck.
I have heard from a friend who has regular dealings with Angola , and with Angolan embassies in the Western hemisphere, that it is very difficult to get any thing done efficiently and promptly there.