09 May 10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%BAl_Baduel
...
The 2009 Human Rights Watch report mentions Baduel as an example of political persecution.[11][12][13] Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter expressed concern about the case,[9] and Steve Ellner, a Venezuelan historian and analyst, noted that "courts overwhelmingly targeted opposition figures. 'Chávez's case would be much stronger if he went after corruption within his own government.' Arresting Baduel neutralised an opponent who could stir trouble in the army. 'Obviously throwing Baduel in jail had a political motivation.'"[9]
09 May 10
Originally posted by zeeblebotYes, but HRW is obviously a partisan right-wing think tank.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%BAl_Baduel
...
The 2009 Human Rights Watch report mentions Baduel as an example of political persecution.[11][12][13] Former U.S. President Jimmy Carter expressed concern about the case,[9] and Steve Ellner, a Venezuelan historian and analyst, noted that "courts overwhelmingly targeted opposition figures. 'Chávez's ...[text shortened]... trouble in the army. 'Obviously throwing Baduel in jail had a political motivation.'"[9]
09 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by adam warlockHugo chavez certainly seems to be more concerned about the country's poor , but that doesn't excuse the way he concentrated the power on the executive and extented his term limits, and how he harassed the media and the opposition. He is the typical cardillo, winning the support of the public through handouts only to install himself as a virtual dictator after winning elections, he is really a present-day peron.
If you'd seen it all you'd know the answer to these questions. You will know why he is largely a good figure for a substantial part of the population of Venezuela, and you'll see why those assertions of him hampering free press and locking up political prisoners don't hold up to serious scrutiny.
It is a hour and half and it'll help you dispelling ma . If you want I can link them here too.
http://www.michaelparenti.org/GoodVenezuela.pdf
You can deny this all you want but the evidence speaks for itself, there is no balance of power in venezuela, regardless of how benign chavez may be towards the common people, it doesn't change the fact he has become a virtual dictator.
09 May 10
Originally posted by generalissimoConcentrated power in the executive?! Harassed the media and opposition? Are you talking about Chavez or Uribe. Are you talking about Chavez or the post Zelaya government?
Hugo chavez certainly seems to be more concerned about the country's poor , but that doesn't excuse the way he concentrated the power on the executive and extented his term limits, and how he harassed the media and the opposition. He is the typical cardillo, winning the support of the public through handouts only to install himself as a virtual dictato ...[text shortened]... ay be towards the common people, it doesn't change the fact he has become a virtual dictator.
Chavez extended his term limits?! Last time I checked the Constitution change came about through popular referendum.
I don't agree (totally) with him making the referendum soon after losing the first one, but I'm also aware of the campaign of disinformation that surrounded both referendums. So in this one I'm leaning with the choice of the people of Venezuela.
The facts are that Chavez allowed a lot more from the press than any other democratic government I know of: he was called a madman, a dictator, a Nazi, being compared to Castro and Hitler on a daily basis. Not only that, but RCTV also periodically asked the viewers to take it to the streets and oust Chavez. During the coup they emitted a false declaration of some Venezuelan generals and after the coup they publicly congratulated the people involved in the coup and told they had a part in it.
After two days the venezuelan people (mind this - the venezuelan people) succeed in getting Chavez back to power. His personal guard didn't have to fire a single shot.
After all of this RCTV continued emitting.
I think that anyone doing any kind of media harassment would take immediate answers after getting back to power and yet RCTV continued on air for several years. Some years after that they failed to comply and didn't get their license renewed and had to resort to satellite emissions. A few years after they failed to comply to some rules that national broadcasters had to comply and their sign was shut off.
All of this was always according to Venezuelan law that Chavez at no point changed to serve his interests.
How any of this makes him a virtual dictator is a mystery to me, I tell you.
How do you think Chavez should have dealt with RCTV after the failed coup by the way?
09 May 10
Originally posted by adam warlockThe first constitutional referendum had a number of changes to the constitution of which the abolition of term limits was only one. The narrow defeat of those proposals did not necessarily mean that the majority of the Venezuelan people were opposed to the end of term limits. When the people were given a straight up or down vote for the abolition of term limits they voted to abolish them (not just Presidential term limits BTW). That's an example of "dictatorship" according to the warped logic of generalissmo.
Concentrated power in the executive?! Harassed the media and opposition? Are you talking about Chavez or Uribe. Are you talking about Chavez or the post Zelaya government?
Chavez extended his term limits?! Last time I checked the Constitution change came about through popular referendum.
I don't agree (totally) with him making the referendum soon af ...[text shortened]... u.
How do you think Chavez should have dealt with RCTV after the failed coup by the way?
09 May 10
Originally posted by no1marauder
The first constitutional referendum had a number of changes to the constitution of which the abolition of term limits was only one. The narrow defeat of those proposals did not necessarily mean that the majority of the Venezuelan people were opposed to the end of term limits. When the people were given a straight up or down vote for the abolition of ter ...[text shortened]... mits BTW). That's an example of "dictatorship" according to the warped logic of generalissmo.
The first constitutional referendum had a number of changes to the constitution of which the abolition of term limits was only one.
Yes, and that's why I mentioned the campaign of disinformation in the two referendums.
But of course none of these facts matter, all that we want is some kind of mad virtual dictator to point our collective fingers at.
09 May 10
Originally posted by generalissimothe poor was his only available route to power. his attempt at a coup failed, right?
Hugo chavez certainly seems to be more concerned about the country's poor , but that doesn't excuse the way he concentrated the power on the executive and extented his term limits, and how he harassed the media and the opposition. He is the typical cardillo, winning the support of the public through handouts only to install himself as a virtual dictato ...[text shortened]... ay be towards the common people, it doesn't change the fact he has become a virtual dictator.
09 May 10
Originally posted by adam warlockWould you support an attempt by Obama to limit the broadcasting rights of Fox News?
Concentrated power in the executive?! Harassed the media and opposition? Are you talking about Chavez or Uribe. Are you talking about Chavez or the post Zelaya government?
Chavez extended his term limits?! Last time I checked the Constitution change came about through popular referendum.
I don't agree (totally) with him making the referendum soon af ...[text shortened]... u.
How do you think Chavez should have dealt with RCTV after the failed coup by the way?
09 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by KazetNagorraWhen Fox News supports an attempted military overthrow of the Obama administration that analogy might be applicable.
Would you support an attempt by Obama to limit the broadcasting rights of Fox News?
You might find this interesting though you seem pretty close minded on Chavez: http://www.mediaaccuracy.org/node/8
09 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by KazetNagorraHas Fox plotted to oust Obama?
To Chavez and RCTV.
Has Fox called out his viewers to an armed fight against Obama?
Has Fox called Obama a mad man, a nazi, a dictator on a daily basis?
Has Fox participated on a coup to remove Obama?
Well RCTV did all of that and still it continued airing after Chavez got back to power.
If FoxNews did all of that to Obama and Obama got back to power I think he'd be fully justified to persecute the people on FoxNews that were involved with the coup.
Chavez did none of that. RCTV continued airing. The diatribes just kept on coming.
In what way did you think you're analogy would be a good one?
09 May 10
Originally posted by adam warlockFox News encourages citizens to undermine the Obama administration in a variety of ways (Tea Party comes to mind). No, they haven't called him a dictator (as far as I am aware), but they did call him "Marxist", "socialist", etc.
Has Fox plotted to oust Obama?
Has Fox called out his viewers to an armed fight against Obama?
Has Fox called Obama a mad man, a nazi, a dictator on a daily basis?
Has Fox participated on a coup to remove Obama?
Well RCTV did all of that and still it continued airing after Chavez got back to power.
If FoxNews did all of that to Obama and Obama ...[text shortened]... iatribes just kept on coming.
In what way did you think you're analogy would be a good one?
09 May 10
Originally posted by KazetNagorraAnd Nazi
Fox News encourages citizens to undermine the Obama administration in a variety of ways (Tea Party comes to mind). No, they haven't called him a dictator (as far as I am aware), but they did call him "Marxist", "socialist", etc.
http://digg.com/politics/Beck_Goes_There_Fox_News_are_the_New_Jews_Under_Nazi_Obama
09 May 10
1 edit
Originally posted by KazetNagorraAre you ready to admit your comparison/analogy was crap anytime soon?
Fox News encourages citizens to undermine the Obama administration in a variety of ways (Tea Party comes to mind). No, they haven't called him a dictator (as far as I am aware), but they did call him "Marxist", "socialist", etc.
Military coups...
Calling out the people to armed struggle...
Emitting forgeries...
Supporting and joining in the plan of the coup...
I really fail to see how any of this can be compared to Obama and Fox.
Let us also ignore the fact that RCTV continued emitting regularly for years after Chavez got back to power. 🙄 🙄 🙄
Edit: Just start at minute 19 and get educated please.