Debates
10 Dec 11
10 Dec 11
September 07, 1989|BY LARS-ERIK NELSON
WASHINGTON — After the USS Vincennes mistakenly shot down an Iranian Airbus in the summer of 1988, killing 290 people, the Navy investigated its seeming act of military incompetence and concluded, in the words of Adm. William Crowe:
"Iran must bear the principal responsibility for the tragedy."
Yes, there were minor mistakes aboard the Vincennes in the heat of battle, the Navy said, but the Iranians were criminally negligent in sending the civilian airliner over a battle zone. The plane was off the normal commercial air-corridor. The Vincennes was under a joint attack by Iranian gunboats and military forces. Its commander, Capt. Will Rogers III, had a duty to shoot in self-defense to protect his ship and crew.
http://articles.philly.com/1989-09-07/news/26100770_1_robo-cruiser-uss-sides-uss-vincennes
10 Dec 11
Originally posted by utherpendragonYou are quoting obsolete and incorrect information. Try reading this article from the US Naval Institute which quotes Captain Carlson from the USS Sides (which was nearby):
[quote]September 07, 1989|BY LARS-ERIK NELSON
WASHINGTON — After the USS Vincennes mistakenly shot down an Iranian Airbus in the summer of 1988, killing 290 people, the Navy investigated its seeming act of military incompetence and concluded, in the words of Adm. William Crowe:
"Iran must bear the principal responsibility for the tragedy."
...[text shortened]...
http://articles.philly.com/1989-09-07/news/26100770_1_robo-cruiser-uss-sides-uss-vincennes
The information on the transponder emissions is unambiguous, however. According to Admiral Fogarty's report of investigation, "The data from USS Vincennes' tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence information corroborate the fact that TN 4131 was on a normal commercial air flight plan profile…squawking Mode III 6760, on a continuous ascent in altitude from take-off at Bandar Abbas to shoot down."21
The number in the 6700-series indicated it was a commercial aircraft.
Both Captain Rogers [of the Vincennes] and Captain Carlson had this information.
"I told the investigators that I believed there was sufficient information, had it been processed properly, to have stopped this thing from happening. And that point is never addressed in their report," Captain Carlson said. And Captain Carlson has a theory about this curious avoidance.
"Why do they walk away? Because if you want to hang Dave Carlson, you've got to hang Will Rogers. And if you want to hang Will Rogers, then the question is going to be why was he doing this s**t in the first place? That means you've got to pull the rope and hang Admiral Less for giving him permission," Captain Carlson said.
"And worse than that, you would then have to go back in front of the American people and say, 'Excuse me, folks, but the explanation you just got from Admiral Crowe, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, saying that this was a justifiable action, and that the Vincennes was defending herself from an attack, cannot be supported by the facts,’" Captain Carlson said.
http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1993-08/vincennes-case-study
Rogers should have been court-martialed or at the very least relieved of his command and forced to retire.
11 Dec 11
Originally posted by skipper2666Of course people should be aghast at it. It was a horrific tragedy.
http://jucameron.wordpress.com/2010/03/02/the-vincennes-incident/
All honest Citenzens would be aghast at this, comments please.
It was a mistake, however, and the US paid over $60 million in compensation and took responsibility.
Any comparisons to Lockerbie, where a civilian airliner was specifically targeted, are wrong.
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11 Dec 11
Originally posted by sh76Yes! It was a different government behind the Lockerbie incident.
Of course people should be aghast at it. It was a horrific tragedy.
It was a mistake, however, and the US paid over $60 million in compensation and took responsibility.
Any comparisons to Lockerbie, where a civilian airliner was specifically targeted, are wrong.
12 Dec 11
1 edit
Originally posted by utherpendragonThis happens every day.......... don't you understand that?
This happened in 1988 ?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=American+troops+shooting+civilians+iraq&page=1
We are helping to pay for it and will continue to pay for it in so many different ways.
Wake up!!
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12 Dec 11
Originally posted by skipper2666If any other country had killed the number of American citizens the Israelis had then we would have already invaded.
This happens every day.......... don't you understand that?
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=American+troops+shooting+civilians+iraq&page=1
We are helping to pay for it and will continue to pay for it in so many different ways.
Wake up!!
13 Dec 11
Originally posted by sh76Spouting utter hogwash again...
Of course people should be aghast at it. It was a horrific tragedy.
It was a mistake, however, and the US paid over $60 million in compensation and took responsibility.
Any comparisons to Lockerbie, where a civilian airliner was specifically targeted, are wrong.
Didn't Captain Rogers, after blowing up a passenger flight, receive an award?
Yup...
From Wiki (although I've heard about this sorry tale since the 1980's):
"Rogers remained in command of the USS Vincennes until May 27, 1989.[13] In 1990, President George H. W. Bush awarded Capt. Rogers the Legion of Merit decoration "for exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer ... from April 1987 to May 1989." The award was given for his service as the Commanding Officer of the Vincennes..."
It does make you wonder if it isn't all part of a new script for Catch 22.
Also makes you wonder why Libya got blamed for the subsequent Pan-Am bombing... oh yeah... something to do with someone buying clothing in Malta... Ian bloody Flemming couldn't make up such crap.
Here's more from Wiki, in case you're really interested:
David Carlson, commanding officer of the USS Sides, a second ship that was under the tactical control of Rogers at the time of the incident. Carlson claimed that the downing of Iran Air 655 marked the "horrifying climax to Capt. Rogers's aggressiveness, first seen four weeks ago." He was referring to incidents on the June 2, 1988, when he claimed that Rogers brought the Vincennes too close to an Iranian frigate that was searching a bulk carrier, that he launched a helicopter too close to Iranian small boats, and that he fired upon a number of small Iranian military boats instead of directing another, smaller warship to do so. In disagreeing with Rogers's decision – citing the high cost of the cruiser relative to that of the frigates attached to the group – Carlson posited, "Why do you want an AEGIS cruiser out there shooting up boats? It wasn't a smart thing to do."[11]
AND JUST TO BE CLEAR:
- It was a passenger jet
- It was flying over Iranian territorial waters (so even if it had been an Iranian fighter plane... IT WAS IN IT'S OWN TERRITORY!).
- The compensation wasn't agreed upon until the 90's
- The compensation was WAY lower than the compensation for the Lockerbie bombing (even though the whole court case of the Lockerbie bombing was sham from the start).
- The US has never appologised to Iran (even though they did pay 60 million in comp.). So, they murdered hundreds of civilians (by accident or by incompentence or by sheer "Dr. Strangelove-esque" nuttiness) and they don't think they should say: "Hey... sorry 'bout that."
And you wonder why everyone hates you?
Sweet Jesus preserve us.
Originally posted by shavixmirWhat you didn't mention is that the ship was actively engaged in combat with Iranian forces at the time.
Spouting utter hogwash again...
Didn't Captain Rogers, after blowing up a passenger flight, receive an award?
Yup...
[b]From Wiki (although I've heard about this sorry tale since the 1980's):
"Rogers remained in command of the USS Vincennes until May 27, 1989.[13] In 1990, President George H. W. Bush awarded Capt. Rogers the Legion of Merit dec
And you wonder why everyone hates you?
Sweet Jesus preserve us.[/b]
Whether it was an understandable accident or the result of negligence from either side, I will reserve judgment because I wasn't there and I don't know anything about the Navy's policies and procedures at the time, or the equipment they rely upon. But certainly a civilian jetliner flying in the vicinity of a battle zone is putting itself at risk.
Whichever the case, you didn't even rebut sh76's point - which was any comparison to acts which deliberately target a civilian jetliner is wrong.
He got an award after completing his tour of duty. That's nothing special, in fact it's pretty much standing operating procedure (especially for those of high rank). He did NOT get an award FOR shooting down the plane.
I don't wonder why you hate me. You're an anti-American bigot, plain and simple. The fact that someone of your character hates me is the greatest compliment you can pay.
13 Dec 11
1 edit
Originally posted by USArmyParatrooperI suggest you read the link I provided above from the US Naval Institute: http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1993-08/vincennes-case-study
What you didn't mention is that the ship was actively engaged in combat with Iranian forces at the time.
Whether it was an understandable accident or the result of negligence from either side, I will reserve judgment because I wasn't there and I don't know anything about the Navy's policies and procedures at the time, or the equipment th The fact that someone of your character hates me is the greatest compliment you can pay.
The jetliner was a scheduled civilian flight, flying in a standard commercial zone and his transponder was broadcasting the code of a commercial airliner:
According to Admiral Fogarty's report of investigation, "The data from USS Vincennes' tapes, information from USS Sides and reliable intelligence information corroborate the fact that TN 4131 was on a normal commercial air flight plan profile…squawking Mode III 6760, on a continuous ascent in altitude from take-off at Bandar Abbas to shoot down."21
The number in the 6700-series indicated it was a commercial aircraft.
Both Captain Rogers and Captain Carlson had this information.
As for your and Admiral Crowe's pathetic attempt to blame the victim:
The top military officer involved in the Vincennes affair was Admiral William J. Crowe, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. His five-page endorsement of Admiral Fogarty’s investigation put the rap on Iran for allowing its airliner “to fly directly into the midst of a gunfight.”35
Admiral Crowe’s accusation begs the question: How could the pilot, or the air traffic controllers at Bandar Abbas, possibly have known of the surface engagement under way?
Rogers should have been court-maritialed or a least relieved of his command and forced to retire not given a Legion of Merit which is supposed to be awarded only for "exceptionally meritorious conduct". Acting with recklessness and/or gross negligence that results in the deaths of 290 innocent men, women and children is about as far from "exceptionally meritorious conduct" as an officer in the USN can get.
13 Dec 11
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderI'll read the report later on when I have time, as I said I haven't ruled out negligence as a factor.
I suggest you read the link I provided above from the US Naval Institute: http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1993-08/vincennes-case-study
The jetliner was a scheduled civilian flight, flying in a standard commercial zone and his transponder was broadcasting the code of a commercial airliner:
According to Admiral Fogarty's re about as far from "exceptionally meritorious conduct" as an officer in the USN can get.
With that being said, even IF he was negligent that is distinctly different than deliberately targeting a civilian jetliner.
And how could they NOT know they were flying over a battle zone? If the US troops were engaged off of the coast of New York do you have any doubt flights would be canceled out of JFK?