Debates
15 Nov 21
@averagejoe1 said(Shrug) Whatever the share is is decided by the People's elected representatives pursuant to the US Constitution. The proposal (since abandoned because of Manchin's opposition) would have left Musk more than 90% of his approximately $400 billion fortune, so it would hardly have been debilitating.
You casually mention 'tiny share',, like the phrase 'living wage', or the phrase 'fair share',,,,how much do you think, in each these categories ?
Buffet and I agree the rich should not pay zero taxes.. So let us all stipulate to that. So, how much should they pay? And hey.,,,,what should this extra money be used for? Should libs decide,, or conservatives like m ...[text shortened]... HE pie? Bad analogy. You see, there are a LOT of pies, not one pie. Get your own pie. Man up.
@no1marauder saidHow tiny? You can do this, Marauder. I hope you don't go the 'They don't need 2 yachts' gambit,,,,,,,because, they think they need 2 yachts, and they've earned them.
It's hardly "controlling someone life's" to have them pay a tiny share of their wealth to maintain the society and economic system that has allowed them to prosper.
@no1marauder saidBut, I am asking YOU what YOU think Bezos and Musk should pay. Not the legislators. You libs are trying to push the legislators to sock it to the successful, .....should you not march with some posters with a number on them? How much you want them to legislate?
(Shrug) Whatever the share is is decided by the People's elected representatives pursuant to the US Constitution. The proposal (since abandoned because of Manchin's opposition) would have left Musk more than 90% of his approximately $400 billion fortune, so it would hardly have been debilitating.
So, how much? 53% of $300B is $159B. Would that work for you? Do you think they will take their footballs somewhere else? Scotland would be cool. Of course, I will pay a lot more in shipping to get my guitar strings shipped from Scotland. But Biden cares not, because his goal is dependency by folks such as yourself on government. Brrrrrrrrrrr
It is pure funny that libs such as yourself think inflation is OK cause we all have enough saved up money to pay the extra costs.(NBC said that this morning). It is also funny that you say above that you can decide how much money we can get from Musk without debilitating him. What if I was on town tax council and came to your door telling you how much money you should be able to live without??!!??
I actually chuckled to myself when I wrote that.
16 Nov 21
@averagejoe1 said
But, I am asking YOU what YOU think Bezos and Musk should pay. Not the legislators. You libs are trying to push the legislators to sock it to the successful, .....should you not march with some posters with a number on them? How much you want them to legislate?
So, how much? 53% of $300B is $159B. Would that work for you? Do you think they will take their foot ...[text shortened]... money you should be able to live without??!!??
I actually chuckled to myself when I wrote that.
What if I was on town tax council and came to your door telling you how much money you should be able to live without??!!?? I actually chuckled to myself when I wrote that.
Joe, this hypothetical future you describe is our current tax system. Except it only applies to those of us who earn paychecks and worry about property taxes. This doesn't apply to the wealth of the super wealthy.
For most regular Americans, the city/county reassesses the "value" of unrealized assets, in the form of property, every year. Taxes go up every darn year. Elon complains that he doesn't have the money to pay the unrealized gains on his stocks, but he doesn't budget for it like the rest of us have to.
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@wildgrass saidStocks are only taxed when they are sold----What if I was on town tax council and came to your door telling you how much money you should be able to live without??!!?? I actually chuckled to myself when I wrote that.
Joe, this hypothetical future you describe is our current tax system. Except it only applies to those of us who earn paychecks and worry about property taxes. This doesn't apply to the we ...[text shortened]... to pay the unrealized gains on his stocks, but he doesn't budget for it like the rest of us have to.
That is why the wealthiest folks stay wealthy.
The average worker, even if highly paid, has taxes
deducted from each and every paycheck......
Uncle Sam knows what every worker owes.
@wildgrass saidSo the only way to discuss our taxes is to discuss the taxes of the wealthy? If we live in that town of the council, some people are going to live on the hill, and then we will live here and there with regular paychecks,,,,maybe working at Mr. Moneypenny's factory.What if I was on town tax council and came to your door telling you how much money you should be able to live without??!!?? I actually chuckled to myself when I wrote that.
Joe, this hypothetical future you describe is our current tax system. Except it only applies to those of us who earn paychecks and worry about property taxes. This doesn't apply to the we ...[text shortened]... to pay the unrealized gains on his stocks, but he doesn't budget for it like the rest of us have to.
Given this scenario, what should be done about Mr Moneypenny, sitting there with his champagne, not unlike our present-day Musk? What to do to tame Musk and Mr. Moneypenny? Remember, Our town council set up the tax commission rules for all the citizens, they must have had some reason for disproportionate taxation process. Moneypenny and Musk simply pay that which the law requires.
Here is a very short read, explaining why things are like they are. The weirdest factor is that these people have so much wealth, but no income......the tax is based on income. Buffet prob makes $1 a year in taxable income.
A man can buy a million dollar tax-free bond paying 4%. That returns $40K to live on annually, and he (being a millionaire) does not have to pay a penny in tax.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/08/politics/what-matters-income-taxes/index.html
16 Nov 21
@averagejoe1 said
So the only way to discuss our taxes is to discuss the taxes of the wealthy? If we live in that town of the council, some people are going to live on the hill, and then we will live here and there with regular paychecks,,,,maybe working at Mr. Moneypenny's factory.
Given this scenario, what should be done about Mr Moneypenny, sitting there with his champagne, not un ...[text shortened]... pay a penny in tax.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/08/politics/what-matters-income-taxes/index.html
The weirdest factor is that these people have so much wealth, but no income......the tax is based on income. Buffet prob makes $1 a year in taxable income.
It's not income it's wealth. Don't you find that system inherently problematic? Property taxes keep increasing every darn year from city reassessments on the value of my home. Why should my (unsold) home price be burdened with a tax while value increases on assets invested in the stock market are not?
When rich people's assets increase in value, that should be taxed. Otherwise lets do away with property taxes.
16 Nov 21
I think you have to take a step back.
What problems are there in the US?
Well, uh, there are some major problems like polarisation, a decennia long drift away from science and lobby groups which are way too powerful, dictating absurd policies (just think of the military industrial complex).
But let’s down chunk some of the major issues which are easier to comprehend:
- homelessness
- homicide rates
- people living under the poverty line
- violence in various communities
- violence against women
- not enough paid vacation / long working hours = less investment in family matters and bonding
Just a sample of some of the major social issues.
Then there’s society:
- infrastructure is outdated
- bad water supplies
- education costs
- health costs
- electricity grid problems
- flooding (which is going to get worse)
- wild fires (which are going to get worse)
- etc.
And all these things influence each other.
If the water supply is bad, it creates worse health conditions, this costs more money.
If education is low, then people have jobs which pay less. Less housing means the cost per unit goes up, which means longer working hours (or homelessness). Longer working hours leads to less social cohesion at home. This leads to… etc. etc.
So, basically, to have your country functioning, you need to invest in these matters.
Countries which do invest generally have less violence, longer holidays, shorter work weeks and are more harmonious to live in. A higher standard of living. And a smaller wage gap.
Countries which invest the least generally have massive differences between the rich and the poor, loads of violence, strong criminal cartels and the friction within society bubbles over at some point (leading to revolutions, dictatorships, that sort of thing).
So, to simplify it even more: which one of the two scenarios above would you prefer to live in? Most will obviously choose the former (more harmony, less violence).
How do you finance that?
What steps can you take to turn the spiral around?
And answering that question is what governments (attempt to) do.
How would you do it?
@averagejoe1 saidWell that’s what happens when your a gambler sonny, you win some and you lose some. You like the money for nothing bit though huh.
You saw how Tesla stock price dropped when he sold $5B of his own stock. Such actions result in a huge impact on retail stockholders and 401k Plans. Worse, public pension plans control $31Trillion in assets worldwide.
A colossal equity market selloff triggered by a billionaire's tax would negatively affect the retirement security of tens of millions, including some o ...[text shortened]... orce them to sell their stocks, plain and simple. Better leave the golden geese alone. My 2 cents.
So don’t tax the mega rich because it’s bad news for the rich, err yeah ok Jason.
@wildgrass saidThe municipality that charges you that tax is providing services to you, from garbage pickup to school for your children. These are fluid, ongoing expenses of the city, the revenues for same being collected from you, the users of those services.The weirdest factor is that these people have so much wealth, but no income......the tax is based on income. Buffet prob makes $1 a year in taxable income.
It's not income it's wealth. Don't you find that system inherently problematic? Property taxes keep increasing every darn year from city reassessments on the value of my home. Why should my (unsold) home ...[text shortened]... people's assets increase in value, that should be taxed. Otherwise lets do away with property taxes.
One cannot compare the 'increase in value' of their assets to that. Hell, the money in their savings accounts actually loses value to inflation. As to stocks, they may be worth $100K in January, rise to $110K in December, get taxed, and then drop in value to $90K. Would THAT not be inherently problematic?
Anyway, you compare apples and oranges. And if there were no taxes charged by a city, your annual costs of grade school, trash pickup, sewage etc etc would probably cost you more than would the tax assessment.
@shavixmir saidPlease don't misunderstand me. (I actually have some lib qualities!). I don't like Trump. I give money large to the needy, and mostly to kids 'at risk'....I work with them. And I think the tax structure sucks.
I think you have to take a step back.
What problems are there in the US?
Well, uh, there are some major problems like polarisation, a decennia long drift away from science and lobby groups which are way too powerful, dictating absurd policies (just think of the military industrial complex).
But let’s down chunk some of the major issues which are easier to comprehend ...[text shortened]... around?
And answering that question is what governments (attempt to) do.
How would you do it?
But we dont want to have the billionaires move to Holland when we hit them in April for the taxes y'all suggest. I do believe that you are punishing success, but that's just me. I do believe that if a guy makes a lot money, he should buy and island and yacht if he is so inclined......his success, his money, is none of our business. The moral, or the 'right thing' to do, is to give back to the society where he was able to prosper, but then that gets back to my constant question.....how much do you take from them. What is your figure? And what would be the repercussions? Do they pass it all on to the consumer in the cost of goods? That means that members of RHP would be the ultimate payers of the tax. Downer.
My answer.....One flat tax (or Fair Tax) for everyone. 20%? 25%?. That would do it. ('everyone' includes the people from Ethiopia and Yemen who sneak across the border with SAmericans.)
@kevcvs57 saidNo, Kev, there is another reason to leave the rich the hell alone. Rockefeller poured his money into oil and railroads, all the stuff which made us the most powerful country in the world. If you and Bernie were in charge then, you would have taken his money for god-knows-what, and he would not have roared this country into the 20th century.
Well that’s what happens when your a gambler sonny, you win some and you lose some. You like the money for nothing bit though huh.
So don’t tax the mega rich because it’s bad news for the rich, err yeah ok Jason.
One thing you would have enjoyed though.......there would have been no rich people, and there would probably be none today. And no Apple. Why, you would have kicked Jobs' ass!!!
The forum is rife with short-sighted thinkers.
@averagejoe1 saidYour either lying again or you do not know your own history, the US government bankrolled much of the railroad network from tax revenues and land sales.
No, Kev, there is another reason to leave the rich the hell alone. Rockefeller poured his money into oil and railroads, all the stuff which made us the most powerful country in the world. If you and Bernie were in charge then, you would have taken his money for god-knows-what, and he would not have roared this country into the 20th century.
One thing you would have ...[text shortened]... Apple. Why, you would have kicked Jobs' ass!!!
The forum is rife with short-sighted thinkers.
@jimm619 saidYou do not receive a single penny until you are sell a stock. If the owner of the stock can wait for their money so should the government.
Stocks are only taxed when they are sold----
That is why the wealthiest folks stay wealthy.
The average worker, even if highly paid, has taxes
deducted from each and every paycheck......
Uncle Sam knows what every worker owes.
Similarly if you are paid on Fridays the government does not collect your Monday money until you actually receive it.