Debate this!

Originally posted by Redmike
Excuse me if I'm not getting this....

Is being saved a one-off event? Does this mean that a person can't sin after they've been saved, so they'll get into heaven cos they're saved?

What happens if a person's been saved, and then they commit a really big sin?

First off, if someone says they are saved but sin willingly, or deliberately, you have to wonder if they were saved in the first place. If someone is saved they do not desire to sin, however, their flesh wars with the spirit that is in them. The flesh will still sin but the spirit will reveil to them that it is sin so they can repent and turn away form that sin.

Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Originally posted by pritybetta
First off, if someone says they are saved but sin willingly, or deliberately, you have to wonder if they were saved in the first place. If someone is saved they do not desire to sin, however, their flesh wars with the spirit that is in them. The flesh will still sin but the spirit will reveil to them that it is sin so they can repent and turn away form th ...[text shortened]... ur Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I'm not bothered about the scripture stuff, just your own opinions.

But your reply is interesting.

It is possible then that people who say that they are saved aren't really? Are they aware of this, and being deliberately deceitful, or have they been deceived?

But, so I'm clear, a person who is saved, but then sins, will know they have sinned and will repent and still be ok for heaven. But if they don't repent, what's position then?

But, a person who's not been saved, but then sins and repents still ain't getting in?

Originally posted by Redmike
I'm not bothered about the scripture stuff, just your own opinions.

But your reply is interesting.

It is possible then that people who say that they are saved aren't really? Are they aware of this, and being deliberately deceitful, or have they been deceived?

But, so I'm clear, a person who is saved, but then sins, will know they have sinned and wi ...[text shortened]...

But, a person who's not been saved, but then sins and repents still ain't getting in?

Yes, some are deceived, others just plainly do not want to hear truth and rather hear what they want to hear.

If someone sins saying they are saved and does not repent then they were never saved in the first place, for if they do not repent then they have no desire to do the will of the Lord.

If someone is not saved no matter what they do they will not enter heaven. Ferthermore, he will not repent spiritualy because he does not seek after the Lord, he is still in his natural sinful state.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Originally posted by pritybetta
Yes, some are deceived, others just plainly do not want to hear truth and rather hear what they want to hear.

If someone sins saying they are saved and does not repent then they were never saved in the first place, for if they do not repent then they have no desire to do the will of the Lord.

If someone is not saved no matter what they do they will ...[text shortened]... they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

OK, I'll come back to the actual process of being saved, if that's ok.

But, re these people who say they are saved but aren't, cos they sin and don't repent, how are we supposed to know who's really saved and who isn't?

Also, you say that someome sins saying that they are saved was never saved in the 1st place. I don't understand this. What about the period between the person becoming saved and sinning (and not repenting). Weren't they saved for this time?

Also 2, what if a person realises their sin, but maybe a but belatedly, do they get their saved status back again?

Originally posted by Redmike
OK, I'll come back to the actual process of being saved, if that's ok.

But, re these people who say they are saved but aren't, cos they sin and don't repent, how are we supposed to know who's really saved and who isn't?

Also, you say that someome sins saying that they are saved was never saved in the 1st place. I don't understand this. What about the p ...[text shortened]... ealises their sin, but maybe a but belatedly, do they get their saved status back again?

We know them by their fruits.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

No, the person was not saved during the period between saying they are saved to the time of willfully sinning.

You do not get saved then loose your salvation then get it back again. That is not how it works. Once you are saved you stay saved for the Lord is not willing to loose one.

Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones
should perish.

John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Originally posted by pritybetta
We know them by their fruits.

Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

No, the person was not saved during the period between saying they are saved to the time of willfully sinning.

You do not get saved then loose your salvation ...[text shortened]... ch gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I did say before that I was interested in your opinion, rather than a collection of quotes.

I've no idea what you're getting at now.

Originally posted by Redmike
...... how are we supposed to know who's really saved and who isn't?

We would presume far too much to make that judgement for it is not ours to make. There is only one who can make that judgement because there is only one that can discern the motives of the human heart. I personally take comfort in the fact that God will judge, and that Jesus his son, as my defense council, will place his perfect record before the father, in place of my own and the only thing that I have to do is beleive on him and confess his name as my savior. Theres more than that because life goes on and God wants us to have an abundant fruitful life, but the basics of beleiving and confessing our sins and accepting Christs authority over our lives makes for a great starting place.

Originally posted by kmax87
We would presume far too much to make that judgement for it is not ours to make. There is only one who can make that judgement because there is only one that can discern the motives of the human heart. I personally take comfort in the fact that God will judge, and that Jesus his son, as my defense council, will place his perfect record before the father, in p ...[text shortened]... essing our sins and accepting Christs authority over our lives makes for a great starting place.

FFS there's a place to go and talk about your imaginary friend. It's called the spirituality board

Originally posted by Wajoma
FFS there's a place to go and talk about your imaginary friend. It's called the spiritually board

Apologies - I was kinda encouraging them....

Originally posted by pritybetta
First off, if someone says they are saved but sin willingly, or deliberately, you have to wonder if they were saved in the first place. If someone is saved they do not desire to sin, however, their flesh wars with the spirit that is in them. The flesh will still sin but the spirit will reveil to them that it is sin so they can repent and turn away form th ...[text shortened]... ur Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

a couple of things:

1: interesting that you picked that particular reading as it is todays lectionary epistle, I know because i preached it this morning.

2: your understanding is limited. The 1st 8 chapters are about sin and the promise of salvation, the 2nd 8 chapters are a sort of guidline for christian living.

Paul makes clear in this reading that being flesh and blood people is the root of our sinful natures. The desire to sin comes as a result of being humans beings, that does not change with salvation. Paul himself admits that he struggles against knowing what is right and doing what is right. The great apostle Paul had the same problem as we do today, and struggled against his sinful nature, but not always with success. I would suggest you read about Grace, specifically the theology of John Wesley; I think you will both enjoy and learn a great deal about the nature of salvation.

Originally posted by Redmike
Apologies - I was kinda encouraging them....

Apologies too for those who are convinced of their own certain truths, but I simply debate whats on the board. Internal wrangling over what may or may not be appropriate for this forum I leave for those with more time on their hands.

Originally posted by duecer
a couple of things:

1: interesting that you picked that particular reading as it is todays lectionary epistle, I know because i preached it this morning.

2: your understanding is limited. The 1st 8 chapters are about sin and the promise of salvation, the 2nd 8 chapters are a sort of guidline for christian living.

Paul makes clear in this reading th ...[text shortened]... f John Wesley; I think you will both enjoy and learn a great deal about the nature of salvation.

spirituality board please.

Originally posted by kmax87
Apologies too for those who are convinced of their own certain truths, but I simply debate whats on the board. Internal wrangling over what may or may not be appropriate for this forum I leave for those with more time on their hands.

You're supposedly apologizing for someone else? The gall would be cosmic if it weren't for the fact - not possible.

Originally posted by duecer
a couple of things:

1: interesting that you picked that particular reading as it is todays lectionary epistle, I know because i preached it this morning.

2: your understanding is limited. The 1st 8 chapters are about sin and the promise of salvation, the 2nd 8 chapters are a sort of guidline for christian living.

Paul makes clear in this reading th ...[text shortened]... f John Wesley; I think you will both enjoy and learn a great deal about the nature of salvation.

Thank you, I will try to study on that some more. It may help me more than I know...lol

Originally posted by Redmike
I did say before that I was interested in your opinion, rather than a collection of quotes.

I've no idea what you're getting at now.

Sorry, but I quote so that you know that I am not just saying that something is in the Bible when it is not. It is showing proof of what I believe, and showing why I have that opinion.