Debates
13 Jan 06
14 Jan 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzHappy? No. Fatalistic. We have every reason to leave the nest of earth and form a true civilization, but I think we will just set here and rot instead.
You think tens of thousands will survive the next catastophic event? So, you're quite happy about the other 6 billion dying then?
And, no, i don't think only Americans should reduce their greenhouse gas emissions. I think everyone should, but since the US produces nearly a quarter of all GHG emissions, more than any other country (more than china ...[text shortened]... population around 10 times that of the US) combined) then the US has to start to do something.
Usage seems to correlate to production then. The US also generates a quarter of the worlds wealth. And wealth is what fights poverty.
Distribution of wealth is the ONLY argument of the ONLY two pangeo-philosophies of the twentieth century. "Christianity" vs. "Marxism"
That is why these two "philosophies" are mutually exclusive. Since Marxism has proven itself incapable... we are left with our poor old "western heritage" of ... instinctive survival through the judicious application of greed -- or Capitalism as it were.
The nature of our civilization doesn't allow for "fine-tuning" wealth. You either get it or you don't. Kind of an 'adaptive trait' kind of thing.
14 Jan 06
1 edit
Originally posted by StarValleyWyWell, the US produces about 25.2% of global CO2 emissions and has 21.1% of global GDP. The population is somewhere around 296 million (around 4.6% of world population).
Happy? No. Fatalistic. We have every reason to leave the nest of earth and form a true civilization, but I think we will just set here and rot instead.
Usage seems to correlate to production then. The US also generates a quarter of the worlds wealth. And wealth is what fights poverty.
Distribution of wealth is the ONLY argument of the ONLY two pa wealth. You either get it or you don't. Kind of an 'adaptive trait' kind of thing.
Combined, China and India (the worlds two most populous countries) produce about 19.6% of the worlds CO2 emissions. They produce 19.1% of the worlds GDP. The combined population is around 2.4 billion (aroud 37% of world population).
So, the US produces around the same amount of GDP by dirtier means than China and India, and only comprises 10% of the total population of those two countries.
[Edit; Source is nationmaster.com]
14 Jan 06
We have had climate change before in human memory ie the end of the Ice Age (the latest one), it was warmer at the time of the Vikings, freezing cold in the mid 1700s (I think) and so on.
The climate is not and was not absolutely constant pre-Industrial Age.
Having opined thus, on the other hand if greenhouse warming is coinciding with a natural, sun-driven cycle of warming, things could get hot.
14 Jan 06
Originally posted by KneverKnightIndeed, the climate has been both warmer and cooler than this many times in the earths history. Humans were not necessarily extant at the time though. I'd also point out that it is the rate of change, rather than the change itself, which is worrying.
We have had climate change before in human memory ie the end of the Ice Age (the latest one), it was warmer at the time of the Vikings, freezing cold in the mid 1700s (I think) and so on.
The climate is not and was not absolutely constant pre-Industrial Age.
Having opined thus, on the other hand if greenhouse warming is coinciding with a natural, sun-driven cycle of warming, things could get hot.
14 Jan 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzIt's been a long time since I've read about it, but I'm pretty sure that we have had what amounts to climate change even within recorded history, the phrase "mini-ice age" rings a bell but I can't be bothered looking it up right now as I gotta run.
Indeed, the climate has been both warmer and cooler than this many times in the earths history. Humans were not necessarily extant at the time though. I'd also point out that it is the rate of change, rather than the change itself, which is worrying.
14 Jan 06
Originally posted by PocketKingsI remember when I was a kid ,winters were much colder and we had more snow also.Maybe it's "old geezer syndrome" like manys peoples dad's stories about walking barefoot to school,uphill both ways .
Record high temperatures across the northeast United States this week. hitting the 60's in January is completely unheard of in Philadelphia.
Some say this is due to global warming and all the polar ice cap melting cr*p. I don't know if I buy that. I've heard conflicting views on whether global warming is actually happening and what it really means. what do you think?
Maybe it is getting colder, and the "global warming" theory was started by a woman during menopause , having a hot flash.
14 Jan 06
Originally posted by KneverKnightYep, around 1650.
It's been a long time since I've read about it, but I'm pretty sure that we have had what amounts to climate change even within recorded history, the phrase "mini-ice age" rings a bell but I can't be bothered looking it up right now as I gotta run.
From Wiki
"Scientists have identified two causes of the Little Ice Age from outside the ocean/atmosphere/land systems: decreased solar activity and increased volcanic activity. Research is ongoing on more ambiguous influences such as internal variability of the climate system, and anthropogenic influence (Ruddiman). Some have also speculated that depopulation of Europe during the Black Death and the resulting decrease in agricultural output may have prolonged the Little Ice Age."
14 Jan 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzThe little ice age lasted over 400 years. It also was about the
Yep, around 1650.
From Wiki
"Scientists have identified two causes of the Little Ice Age from outside the ocean/atmosphere/land systems: decreased solar activity and increased volcanic activity. Research is ongoing on more ambiguous influences such as internal variability of the climate system, and anthropogenic influence (Ruddiman). Some have als ...[text shortened]... eath and the resulting decrease in agricultural output may have prolonged the Little Ice Age."
same time as the so-called "maunder minimum", a likewise
prolonged period when there were no sunspots reported anywhere in
the world by reputable astronomers of the time, naked eye of course.
The worlds weather is pretty finely tuned to the energy output of
the sun so whatever the sun does, the earth responds.
One thing that may counter a warming trend is right now the
gulf stream ( the global warm water current that moves down from
alaska down south america, around the horn, up the east coast of
south america and up the east coast of north america and then to
europe, etc.) is getting weaker, its about 30 % weaker now than
30 years ago. The ice core analysis of the last 200,000 years shows
that when that flow ceased, it was followed by an ice age.
Maybe this time the warming and the cooling will more or less
cancel out. For sure its a lot warmer here near Philly.
I personally have used 1/3rd the amount of heating oil we usually
use at this time of year. I keep track now that oil is over 2 bucks a
gallon. Maybe the ocean current thing is a feedback system to
try to keep the temperatures more stable. The ice core
results show the average temps were wildly fluctuating up and down
in irregular intervals in the times when there was no flow.
The flow that we see now has been going on since mankind
began agriculture, undoubtely no connection but mankind has
seen about 8,000 straight years of much more stable temperatures
than times before it. If you saw the temp curves it is obvious,
before the flow, say 40,000 years ago, the temps were up and down
ten or more degrees but starting when the current began again,
it looks almost flatlined. So for sure there is a stabalizing effect of
that flow and losing it will result in unstable weather, unpredictable
as to whether it will go hotter or colder. Both scenarios played out
for a couple hundred thousand years of the temperature records before
the present flow started 8,000 years before the present.
14 Jan 06
Originally posted by sonhouseYep, exactly. We've got the climate just nice. Let's not hit it with a proverbial 'big hammer' until it stops being good. plllllllllleeeeeeeaaaassssseeeee! I've for another good 50+ years, and I'd like them to be nice. And i might have kids one day! They might like to know the planet their dad grew up on.
The little ice age lasted over 400 years. It also was about the
same time as the so-called "maunder minimum", a likewise
prolonged period when there were no sunspots reported anywhere in
the world by reputable astronomers of the time, naked eye of course.
The worlds weather is pretty finely tuned to the energy output of
the sun so whatever the sun does ...[text shortened]... rs of the temperature records before
the present flow started 8,000 years before the present.
14 Jan 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzThey'll never know the planet their dad grew up in the same as no-one ever has known the planeet their dad grew up in. There has always been climate change, if the climate didn't change that would be news.
Yep, exactly. We've got the climate just nice. Let's not hit it with a proverbial 'big hammer' until it stops being good. plllllllllleeeeeeeaaaassssseeeee! I've for another good 50+ years, and I'd like them to be nice. And i might have kids one day! They might like to know the planet their dad grew up on.
14 Jan 06
Originally posted by WajomaOkay okay!!!! Lol! The whole 'you never cross the same river twice' thing!! I appreciate what you're saying dude! You are right, but we don't have to help the climate along, do we?!
They'll never know the planet their dad grew up in the same as no-one ever has known the planeet their dad grew up in. There has always been climate change, if the climate didn't change that would be news.
14 Jan 06
Originally posted by sonhouseThe Gulf Stream originates in the Gulf of Mexico(hence the name), exits through the Strait of Florida, and follows the eastern coastlines of the United States and Newfoundland before crossing the Atlantic Ocean.
gulf stream ( the global warm water current that moves down from
alaska down south america, around the horn, up the east coast of
south america and up the east coast of north america and then to
europe, etc.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_Stream
14 Jan 06
Originally posted by sonhouseDon't your fingers ever get tired? 😞
The little ice age lasted over 400 years. It also was about the
same time as the so-called "maunder minimum", a likewise
prolonged period when there were no sunspots reported anywhere in
the world by reputable astronomers of the time, naked eye of course.
The worlds weather is pretty finely tuned to the energy output of
the sun so whatever the sun does ...[text shortened]... rs of the temperature records before
the present flow started 8,000 years before the present.