Debates
28 Dec 10
29 Dec 10
Originally posted by no1marauder1. No.
Two questions:
1) Should a 12 year old be charged with manslaughter?
2) Should the owner of a legal handgun who stored it separately from the ammunition be charged with endangering the welfare of a child?
I'm inclined to say yes to 1 (recognizing that the case is in a Family ...[text shortened]... ns (preferably not simply ones stating "all private handgun ownership should be banned"😉.
He's a child. It wasn't deliberate. Psychological help is what the kid needs. If during this treatment it turns out the accident wasn't quite the accident it seems to be, then he should be helped in a clinical environment to try to build up a conscience.
2. Yes.
A parent shouldn't leave toxic bottles in a cupboard a kid can reach, let alone a bloody gun. I don't know if there are negligence laws, but they should certainly be applied if they do exist.
But no. This father shouldn't go to prison either.
It's quite tragic enough as it is.
29 Dec 10
1 edit
Originally posted by utherpendragonGood grief
At 12 years there were more guns in my house than I can count. Literally one behind each door as well as other places.
(edit: I accidentally placed the "good grief" in the quoted box. Now, if that can happen, then surely leaving guns out for kids to play with is an accident waiting to happen???)
29 Dec 10
1 edit
Originally posted by shavixmirAccidents happen when people treat guns, explosives,electricity,fire, or even automobiles as if they are some kind of toy. They are not. And it is the duty of the parents to make their kids understand this. Not to fear these things but to respect them and learn how to handle them properly and in a safe manner so as not to injure themselves or others.
Good grief
(edit: I accidentally placed the "good grief" in the quoted box. Now, if that can happen, then surely leaving guns out for kids to play with is an accident waiting to happen???)
I know some 12 year olds who are as mature as young adults and others who are less mature than a 5 year old. Its all how you raise them.
In this case in the OP the father had it unloaded in his bedroom in the dresser drawer under clothes. Ammo some place else. Especially, with another kid in the house unsupervised the father should of thought to lock it up before he left. Thats where he went wrong ,for sure.
The details are sketchy but for this kid to seek out this fire arm then find the ammo, load it , point it in the direction of someone else then pull the trigger, tells me something is serious wrong somewhere, mainly with this kid.
29 Dec 10
Originally posted by no1marauderGood post.
This happened in a rural community not far from where I live:
WILTON -- As the family of Nicholas Naumkin prepared to lay their 12-year-old son to rest, police announced Monday that the boy who shot and killed him will be charged with manslaughter.
Michael O'Rourke, also 12, will be petitioned in Saratoga County Family Court. The b ...[text shortened]... not simply ones stating "all private handgun ownership should be banned"😉.
I agree that almost anything can be dangerous if kids aren't properly supervised and/or taught how to handle household items. I don't have the numbers offhand, but I'm willing to bet that more kids die in swimming pools than from household guns. I have a friend who had probably 15 guns in his house; but they're properly stored and pose less of a risk to his kids than the cars in his garage.
As for the OP, I say no to both. As for the kid, legalities aside, we all know the kid had no malicious intent. Should he have been more careful? Of course. Does his conduct fit within the legal definition of involuntary manslaughter? Probably. But he's 12 years old. It's not fair to judge him by the same standard of care one would just an adult by. The kid made a tragic mistake. There's no need to ruin his life because of it. Think about it. Does the kid need to be rehabilitated or kept away from society as a danger? Is there a deterrence factor here? Isn't the fact that his friend died deterrent enough to other people in similar situations.
As for the father, again, maybe he should have kept everything under lock and key. But does his conduct rise to the level of criminal negligence? Gee, I don't know. Keeping the ammunition and guns hidden in separate places is fairly good protection, although unfortunately not good enough in this case. He has his son's friend's life in his conscience. Does he need to be punished further for what amounts to a miscalculation? Civil liability? Sure. Criminal liability? I don't think so.
29 Dec 10
1 edit
Originally posted by sh76
Good post.
I agree that almost anything can be dangerous if kids aren't properly supervised and/or taught how to handle household items. I don't have the numbers offhand, but I'm willing to bet that more kids die in swimming pools than from household guns. I have a friend who had probably 15 guns in his house; but they're properly stored and pose less of a r ts to a miscalculation? Civil liability? Sure. Criminal liability? I don't think so.
But he's 12 years old. It's not fair to judge him by the same standard of care one would just an adult by.-sh76
The courts do not agree with your assessment sh76. For example,
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2838304/adult_trial_for_boy_12_in_pa_jordan.html
29 Dec 10
2 edits
Originally posted by utherpendragonOkay.But he's 12 years old. It's not fair to judge him by the same standard of care one would just an adult by.-sh76
[b]The courts do not agree with your assessment sh76. For example,
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2838304/adult_trial_for_boy_12_in_pa_jordan.html[/b]
First of all, I specifically said that by the letter of the law, his actions probably do constitute manslaughter. Not every prosecutor has to bring the maximum charge allowable by law. Prosecutorial discretion is broad and important.
Second, that case was about an intentional premeditated assassination style killing. This is about a negligent discharge of a firearm. The two cases could not be less comparable.
Third, the fact that he's initially tried as an adult does not mean that is the end result. Many courts have initially tried little children as adults, only to have the cases reduced either before trial or after verdict to juvenile cases. The Alex and Derek King case in Florida comes to mind.
Fourth, the fact that one court allows it does not mean that it's the majority rule. In fact, I'd venture to put forth that this is probably not the majority rule. My educated guess is that in most cases, a 12 year old murderer would be tried as a juvenile.
29 Dec 10
Originally posted by sh76Okay,nice rebuttal 😉
Okay.
First of all, I specifically said that by the letter of the law, his actions probably do constitute manslaughter. Not every prosecutor has to bring the maximum charge allowable by law. Prosecutorial discretion is broad and important.
Second, that case was about an intentional premeditated assassination style killing. This is about a negligent discha ...[text shortened]... My educated guess is that in most cases, a 12 year old murderer would be tried as a juvenile.
The details of this case are far too sketchy though. And as far as I know the only version of the story comes from the only witness, the boy who pulled the trigger. It may have been deliberate,who is too say? The fact that the boy went through several steps that led up to the discharge of the firearm speaks volumes to me. It was no accident. Guns just dont load, aim, and fire all by themselves.
29 Dec 10
Originally posted by utherpendragonWell, if he killed his friend on purpose, that's a different ballgame, of course.
Okay,nice rebuttal 😉
The details of this case are far too sketchy though. And as far as I know the only version of the story comes from the only witness, the boy who pulled the trigger. It may have been deliberate,who is too say? The fact that the boy went through several steps that led up to the discharge of the firearm speaks volumes to me. It was no accident. Guns just dont load, aim, and fire all by themselves.
29 Dec 10
Originally posted by sh76There was a follow up article in today's Albany Times Union which stated:
Okay.
First of all, I specifically said that by the letter of the law, his actions probably do constitute manslaughter. Not every prosecutor has to bring the maximum charge allowable by law. Prosecutorial discretion is broad and important.
Second, that case was about an intentional premeditated assassination style killing. This is about a negligent discha ...[text shortened]... My educated guess is that in most cases, a 12 year old murderer would be tried as a juvenile.
Children who are 13, 14 and 15 can be charged as adults in New York if they are accused of certain crimes -- murder and rape, for example -- and teens 16 and up can be charged as adults. But 12 year olds cannot be charged as adults, regardless of the crime.
If O'Rourke is found guilty of manslaughter, he will not be sentenced to a jail or confinement along the same lines as an adult convicted of the same crime. An adult could be sentenced to 3 1/2 to 15 years in state prison, but according to Rider, no punishment for a child would exceed 18 months.
http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Manslaughter-petition-weighed-925338.php
That seems a wise policy to me.
30 Dec 10
Originally posted by SleepyguyAssuming he has no criminal record, it's overwhelming likely that the case will be resolved by a plea, quite possibly to a non-criminal offense or even an ACOD where the case is dismissed in six months if he doesn't get arrested again. That's even if the DA decides to pursue the charges.
Yes, and since the charge against the father is a misdemeanor doesn't that mean he's unlikely to do any time as well?
05 Jan 11
Although it doesn't have much to do with most of the discussion here, I thought I'd mention a bitter development: the slain boy's grandfather was killed after visiting his grandson's grave when he accidentally wandered on to a major highway. http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Boy-s-grandfather-killed-after-grave-visit-935939.php