03 Jun 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageAre we talking about different things here?
You really have to learn the difference between 'copy' and 'steal'. If I make a copy of your favourite Armani suit, how can you possibly claim that I am stealing it?
I'm not getting into the whole Digital Rights Management debate/debacle - I was responding to Shav's off the cuff remarks that just because music is easily available in digital form, these greedy artists should be prepared to be digitally sodomised by him...
03 Jun 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadI don´t sell them as digital files. I sell them in frames.
If you sold one of one of your photos to someone and he put it on the internet, would you object?
What if a thief stole your camera and posted the photos on the internet?
I have found some of my scaled down images on the net though. It didn´t really bother me to be honest.
03 Jun 09
Originally posted by CrowleyThe only thinsg I have illegally downloaded was 300 episodes of a radio show you couldn´t get anywhere else. Every single one of those same shows that has subsequently been released officially on CD, I have bought so I am able to discuss this from a very smug, high and mighty position.
I can't get behind that.
So just because I'm able to reach through my car window and get to a Coke on one of those open transport trucks means I can grab it?
No-one would do that, so why is digital 'theft' such a grey area?
I've said before, I'm no saint. Probably about 70% of my digital entertainment is pirated. I'm not an advocate for playing by t ...[text shortened]... stify piracy, because at the end of the day - you are a thief. I've made peace with it.
All my digital music is either ripped from my own CD´s or bought from iTunes. I still, however, argue that people do not buy stuff they can´t copy. If you can´t play your "content" on whatever device you happen to have bought that month to use on the train, you´re not buying it. The music industry thinks you should buy it multiple times, idiots!. iTunes got rid of its DRM for this very reason and Sony´s UMD´s failed for this reason too.
Sony, in fact, are so out of touch they wouldn´t even license a standalone UMD player for your TV and originally didn´t include a TV out on the PSP. Yes, they really did think everybody was going to go and buy their entire DVD collection all over again to watch on a teeny weeny little screen instead of ripping the damn DVD and transcoding it for the PSP. Sony even spent ages trying to stop people doing that before giving up. Losers.
03 Jun 09
Originally posted by shavixmirOh I see. You think of the notion of property as one of those 'savage' ideas that we give up when we become 'civilized'? I never thought of it that way (or at least, it's been a very long time since I thought that way!)
Yeah, I'd like to see you explaining your last post to a lion, a grizzly or a penguin as well.
Teach them to read and write and I'll withdraw the statement.
Mankind is superior to the brutes because of his ability to supress his natural urges, eh? A very quaint point of view.
So my point was that 'property' is a fundamental notion like hunger or sex drive or rage or pleasure that we find even in animals -- so why should we be surprised to find it in ourselves?
04 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by CrowleyAt the end of the day the truck doesnt take up space in your driveway, and you dont have to fill up its tank with gas. A PC coupled with the internet gives you a window on the world and if you can legally *see* anything, and you have not hacked into someone elses account or fraudulently gained access to websites using fake credit cards or ID, then whatever you see or whatever remains in any of your temporary folders is your property. You are on your property in your own home behind your own computer. Whats grey about that. If people chose to have an inadequate business model and underestimate the capacity and intelligence of their audience to avoid being ripped off, then as I always say, seller beware.
So just because I'm able to reach through my car window and get to a Coke on one of those open transport trucks means I can grab it? No-one would do that, so why is digital 'theft' such a grey area?.....[But]..don't try to justify piracy, because at the end of the day - you are a thief. I've made peace with it.
There is no reaching over into someone elses truck. More like the bank at your local shopping centre allowing their cash to be left laying around all over the mall and then proceeding to leave it unguarded 24/7, with nothing more than stealing is a moral offence as security. Entrapment is also an immoral act.
04 Jun 09
Originally posted by WheelyLook, DRM in whatever current form is not the right IP protocol. I think most people will agree.
The only thinsg I have illegally downloaded was 300 episodes of a radio show you couldn´t get anywhere else. Every single one of those same shows that has subsequently been released officially on CD, I have bought so I am able to discuss this from a very smug, high and mighty position.
All my digital music is either ripped from my own CD´s or bought fro ...[text shortened]... for the PSP. Sony even spent ages trying to stop people doing that before giving up. Losers.
I just get irritated by people jumping on the DRM bandwagon and the "record companies are greedy bastards" bandwagon to justify their digital theft.
04 Jun 09
Originally posted by CrowleyBut how is it theft, Crowley? You seem to be ignoring an important point that some people are making -- that copying is not the same as stealing.
Look, DRM in whatever current form is not the right IP protocol. I think most people will agree.
I just get irritated by people jumping on the DRM bandwagon and the "record companies are greedy bastards" bandwagon to justify their digital theft.
04 Jun 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI'm not following...
But how is it theft, Crowley? You seem to be ignoring an important point that some people are making -- that copying is not the same as stealing.
You have a CD with music on, you rip it to listen to it on a bunch of different devices, including say: 2 PCs, an iPod, an MP3 disc for the car, a USB device you plug into a home theatre system and you make a backup CD.
This can't be seen as stealing, but is where DRM falls flat.
Getting an MP3 off a p2p network on the web is theft.
Now, the grey area as I see it, would be the occasion where you copy a song from a buddy who has the original rights to use said music. He could have lent you the disc etc., but he gave you the song in any number of ways like on a thumb drive.
Is this the scenario you are talking about? Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread yet.
04 Jun 09
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Originally posted by CrowleyWhy? You're copying something, and that may be illegal in some countries (in the same way that some books are copyrighted in some countries and not in others), but it can't be said to be stealing, surely. Use the handbag analogy to make things clearer. If I copy your gorgeous handbag, I am not stealing it, am I?
Getting an MP3 off a p2p network on the web is theft.
If you keep on saying 'it is theft' without giving reasons, I'm going to have to categorise you as a religious nut like rwingett.
04 Jun 09
Originally posted by CrowleyIf I take an apple from you, you lose the apple.
I'm not following...
You have a CD with music on, you rip it to listen to it on a bunch of different devices, including say: 2 PCs, an iPod, an MP3 disc for the car, a USB device you plug into a home theatre system and you make a backup CD.
This can't be seen as stealing, but is where DRM falls flat.
Getting an MP3 off a p2p network on the web is thef ...[text shortened]... ive.
Is this the scenario you are talking about? Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread yet.
If I copy a song from you, you still have the song.
That's why people are saying the second is not "theft". No one has lost anything. Just not everyone who feels they should gain by the transaction has gained.
In a way, the music companies are claiming the right to "tax" information transfers between individuals because the information in question originated with them (or more precisely, they have PAID the actual originator and taken over the RIGHT to be CONSIDERED the originator. Whew!).
So the question is, should music companies have that right to collect that tax?
04 Jun 09
Originally posted by Bosse de NageAnd in some corporate quarters, discovering the complexity in nature (copying), and identifying certain gene sequences, is giving some the power to derive patents for which others will have to pay! Viva la revolutiones. Be civil in your disobedience!
You seem to be ignoring an important point that some people are making -- that copying is not the same as stealing.
04 Jun 09
Not sure if it was mentioned already, but the French recently passed a law that would disconnect the Internet service of anyone who downloaded copyrighted material three times or more.
The law has not been put into force yet.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/05/france-set-for-showdown-with-eu-after-passing-3-strikes-law.ars
04 Jun 09
Originally posted by spruce112358That's Mr Suckhosey trying to be a macho bigshot.
Not sure if it was mentioned already, but the French recently passed a law that would disconnect the Internet service of anyone who downloaded copyrighted material three times or more.
The law has not been put into force yet.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/05/france-set-for-showdown-with-eu-after-passing-3-strikes-law.ars