09 Jul 15
1 edit
Originally posted by normbenignThat's incorrect. There are New Testament passages that that tell slaves how to be good slaves, and slave owners how to be slave masters. This was JUST discussed in a currently active thread on this forum, so I'll just post the link rather than go through it again:
Anyone with any knowledge of the Bible, Christian or not, knows that slavery in the Old testament was acceptable, as well as other practices, such as polygamy, that were not permissible to Christians.
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=164726&page=3
Slavery was indeed permissible for Christians. It's discussed on page 3 and 4.
10 Jul 15
Originally posted by JS3571. Is it morally permissible to enslave a person?
1. Is it morally permissible to enslave a person?
2. Is it morally permissible to return a fugitive who was enslaved, to an enslaved condition?
If the two answers differ, how and why do they differ?
Much more difficult question than it seems. Doesn't government enslave people who commit crimes, imprisoning them and forcing them to labor? Was indentured servitude "immoral"? Or a just and rational way of collecting legitimate debt.
Was the long time practice of enslaving conquered people by the conquering nations moral. I think not, nor was or is the practice of capturing people to sell into slavery.
Due to the squishy nature of the first question, the answer to the second tends to relate to the type of slavery, but if any nation promises safe haven to enslaved people, then morality would have them keep their word.
That's my best shot.
10 Jul 15
Originally posted by vivifyNot to act as a spokesperson for Christians, but I think it sort of goes to Jesus' words "give Caesar's thing to Caesar and God's to God." Forgive if my quote is not quite accurate. The general view is that man's governments controlled such things as whether slavery was legal or not, and the church went along with the secular authority.
That's incorrect. There are New Testament passages that that tell slaves how to be good slaves, and slave owners how to be slave masters. This was JUST discussed in a currently active thread on this forum, so I'll just post the link rather than go through it again:
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=164726&page=3
Slavery was indeed permissible for Christians. It's discussed on page 3 and 4.
10 Jul 15
Originally posted by normbenignThe government may have allowed slavery, but there was nothing forcing Christians to be slave owners.
Not to act as a spokesperson for Christians, but I think it sort of goes to Jesus' words "give Caesar's thing to Caesar and God's to God." Forgive if my quote is not quite accurate. The general view is that man's governments controlled such things as whether slavery was legal or not, and the church went along with the secular authority.
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10 Jul 15
Originally posted by normbenignYou say, "Was the long time practice of enslaving conquered people by the conquering nations moral. I think not, nor was or is the practice of capturing people to sell into slavery."
[b]1. Is it morally permissible to enslave a person?
Much more difficult question than it seems. Doesn't government enslave people who commit crimes, imprisoning them and forcing them to labor? Was indentured servitude "immoral"? Or a just and rational way of collecting legitimate debt.
Was the long time practice of enslaving conquered people b ...[text shortened]... haven to enslaved people, then morality would have them keep their word.
That's my best shot.[/b]
That's good enough for me, it covers the situation we are discussing. Assuming that also, the enslavement of the offspring of those captured and enslaved is immoral.
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10 Jul 15
Originally posted by normbenignYou are as far as I can tell the only person with an answer. But the other question was
[b]1. Is it morally permissible to enslave a person?
Much more difficult question than it seems. Doesn't government enslave people who commit crimes, imprisoning them and forcing them to labor? Was indentured servitude "immoral"? Or a just and rational way of collecting legitimate debt.
Was the long time practice of enslaving conquered people b ...[text shortened]... haven to enslaved people, then morality would have them keep their word.
That's my best shot.[/b]
2. Is it morally permissible to return a fugitive who was enslaved, to an enslaved condition?
10 Jul 15
Originally posted by JS357That does not answer my questions. Let me repeat them.
Very well. You appear to be OK with "should" questions.
Should people be enslaved?
Should a fugitive from enslavement be re-enslaved?
If your two opinions differ, why do they differ?
To your question: My opinion is that sometimes certain opinions should be forced on others using minimal reasonable and necessary force. The purpose should be to affect behavior, not belief.
So should illegal immigration be treated as a moral or a legal issue?
And is President Obama morally right to flaunt federal laws on illegal immigration as President Lincoln did on slavery?
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10 Jul 15
Originally posted by RJHindsBoth are legal issues, not moral issues, this should be clear as my opinion ion the first ? and on the second he would not be right to flaunt federal laws, if that is what he did.
That does not answer my questions. Let me repeat them.So should illegal immigration be treated as a moral or a legal issue?
And is President Obama morally right to flaunt federal laws on illegal immigration as President Lincoln did on slavery?
How's that, spanky.
Is it your turn on my two questions?
10 Jul 15
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauder
Both of course. It's also an economic issue and other type of issue as well.
The second question is loaded and thus cannot be answered on its terms.
Then I will rephase the second question into two questions.
Is President Obama morally right to flaunt federal law on illegal immigration? And is he also legally right to do so?
Was President Lincoln morally right to flaunt federal law on slavery? And was he legally right to do so?
And should morality trump legality?
10 Jul 15
1 edit
Originally posted by JS357That's fine. Now here are my answers to your questions:
Both are legal issues, not moral issues, this should be clear as my opinion ion the first ? and on the second he would not be right to flaunt federal laws, if that is what he did.
How's that, spanky.
Is it your turn on my two questions?
1. Is it morally permissible to enslave a person?
No.
2. Is it morally permissible to return a fugitive who was enslaved, to an enslaved condition?
That is a difficult question, since one must also consider the fact that the slave broke a law and you would also be violating a law by not returning him. If one knows that the slave injured or killed someone, then it would definitely be the moral thing to return him to face justice.
If the two answers differ, how and why do they differ?
The fact that the slave is a fugitive means he broke a law.
10 Jul 15
1 edit
Originally posted by JS357The oath of office of President is:
Fair enough.
"So should illegal immigration be treated as a moral or a legal issue?"
Legal issue but people's moral standards will be involved in both legislating and enforcement.
"And is President Obama morally right to flaunt federal law as President Lincoln did?"
Legal issue. In both cases there was/is opportunity for judicial and legislative ac ...[text shortened]... was acting as president, during it he was also acting as CinC. This might affect the situation.
“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”
The Constitution states the following:
The President shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed....
Article II, Section 3
10 Jul 15
Originally posted by RJHindsI don't believe either did what you claim. As pointed out in the link I provided Lincoln obeyed every law regarding slaves.Then I will rephase the second question into two questions.
Is President Obama morally right to flaunt federal law on illegal immigration? And is he also legally right to do so?
Was President Lincoln morally right to flaunt federal law on slavery? And was he legally right to do so?
And should morality trump legality?
10 Jul 15
Originally posted by RJHindsA slave is under no moral obligation to obey any law keeping him a slave. He may take whatever means necessary to free himself including using deadly force against his enslaver or someone attempting to return him to slavery.
That's fine. Now here are my answers to your questions:1. Is it morally permissible to enslave a person?
No.
2. Is it morally permissible to return a fugitive who was enslaved, to an enslaved condition?
That is a difficult question, since one must also consider the fact that the slave broke a law and you would also be violating a law by not re ...[text shortened]... ow and why do they differ?
The fact that the slave is a fugitive means he broke a law.