Debates
20 Feb 21
21 Feb 21
@zahlanzi saidEverything you say is true of course. I wake up, get money at the bank, hire a guy to build my house, pay tax to cover entitlements and build roads, and, ohh, put out my house fire!! I pay a company (supermarket) to get me some bananas from Brazil. Boy, you are so right,,,,I dont go to Brazil and pick the bananas. I dont home school, try to stay successful (an unused word by libs) so I can put them in private.
"We are an independent bunch, self reliant, "
No you fukin aren't. You don't make your clothes or butcher your own cow. You don't put out the fire if your house catches fire. You never built a road in your life. You don't homeschool your children.
You rely on others. Everyone does. And as a society we have all agreed that since nobody can do everything they need for the ...[text shortened]... not worth enough to be able to survive, so they must put in double the hours just to make ends meet.
Your phrase 'you rely on others" Yes,, to the extent that I cannot handle a fire hose or build a house. Love paying those taxes! But not entitlement taxes, that is a tough one.
What does 'share the burden " mean? you sound like Marauder.
Uhhh, are you saying it is needs to be easier to exchange services than it already is??????????????????? I ordered Amazon at 3 yesterday, I will have it by 10 this morning. And there is an ATM on every corner, you can use any bank machine!!!
I am trying to get what all that post is about. I have defeated it, obviously, but please rephrase it so we can have a cogent discussion.
21 Feb 21
@phranny saidPhranny, you make many of MY points. Take the rules, regulations point you make. Yes, there are things in society that are IMPOSSIBLE for citizens to control. So, there are agencies for that. I love agencies. They approve drugs, food we eat, where a plane flies...we cannot control this airplane, so the govt has to do it. OSHA, /had to be sure builder put the proper plumbing and supports in our houses. The FBI and CIA for protection against bad people. The Border control,,,,we cannot go down there and push the invaders back.
@AverageJoe1 The fact is any market has rules and regulations, including capitalism. No one wants to buy dangerous cars or tainted food or get cheated or go to a doctor who is a quack and not qualified. No one wants to work or live in structures that are unsafe. There are rules about property, monopolies, contracts, bankruptcy and how rules will be enforced. The fact is, weal ...[text shortened]... e China is in second place.
https://www.listsworld.com/top-10-countries-with-the-most-billionaires/
You are correct. Anything that citizens cannot control on their own. ( I know nothing of planes but I have to fly in them So, all controlled universally by one agency, working in tandem with other agencies. While I am at it, since yall think I am so mean and selfish, I believe that we should totally support all the 40M people who need help in this country. Food clothing shelter. Citizens, that is. Every one else, take care of themselves, which of course means leaving the democratic beliefs and doctrines to live by. You cant just keep depending on your neighbors for scraps, Phranny. Not healthy for a good economy. I mean, what if you score something off of a conservative, but then a parasite comes by and scores it off of you? You gotta find another host!!!!!
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21 Feb 21
@no1marauder saidMost of the skilled working class earns above $15 per hr., but not much above. Their wages are not going to change with the law. However, the cost of nearly everything they consume to live is going to rise, because nearly 48% of the US workforce makes below $15 per hr. Do you believe their employers, corporations etc... are going to give them all raises under rising cost of doing business from the minimum wage increase? The net effect is relatively large diminishing returns for the working and lesser extent the entire middle class. If you can tell me how what I said doesn't happen, please do. I'm all ears.
So rising wages would hurt the working class?
Do you have any historical evidence to back such an absurd conclusion?
21 Feb 21
1 edit
@joe-shmo saidIF businesses could get higher prices for their goods, they'd already charge them. A gradual increase in the minimum wage isn't going to increase overall consumer demand sufficiently to result in any large surge in overall spending in a $20 trillion economy. It would be highly beneficial to low wage workers however.
Most of the skilled working class earns above $15 per hr., but not much above. Their wages are not going to change with the law. However, the cost of nearly everything they consume to live is going to rise, because nearly 48% of the US workforce makes below $15 per hr. Do you believe their employers, corporations etc... are going to give them all raises under rising cost ...[text shortened]... e entire middle class. If you can tell me how what I said doesn't happen, please do. I'm all ears.
In real terms, the minimum wage has fallen by 16% since it was last increased.
EDIT: This analysis (https://www.epi.org/publication/raising-the-federal-minimum-wage-to-15-by-2024-would-lift-pay-for-nearly-40-million-workers/) states that a gradual increase in the minimum wage would raise workers wages by $118 billion or about .5% of US GDP. Quite obviously right wing fantasies of across the board major price jumps because of such a policy change are absurd.
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21 Feb 21
@no1marauder said"IF businesses could get higher prices for their goods, they'd already charge them."
IF businesses could get higher prices for their goods, they'd already charge them. A gradual increase in the minimum wage isn't going to increase overall consumer demand sufficiently to result in any large surge in overall spending in a $20 trillion economy. It would be highly beneficial to low wage workers however.
The cost to make said good is tied to labor rates. The money has to be coming from somewhere to pay the increased wages to produce goods and services. Are you trying to tell me the rich just eat the lost profit and sell their goods at the same price out of the kindness of their bleeding hearts? They don't... they pass the increased cost to the consumer...
21 Feb 21
@no1marauder said"It would be highly beneficial to low wage workers." I think, yes, but only for a short period until the real effect of raising the wage is felt. Up go the prices of goods, so their take-home pay does not increase their buying power anymore. Surely we do are not so naive as to think that 'nothing different' will arise when the wages are raised.
IF businesses could get higher prices for their goods, they'd already charge them. A gradual increase in the minimum wage isn't going to increase overall consumer demand sufficiently to result in any large surge in overall spending in a $20 trillion economy. It would be highly beneficial to low wage workers however.
In real terms, the minimum wage has fallen by 16% sin ...[text shortened]... ght wing fantasies of across the board major price jumps because of such a policy change are absurd.
21 Feb 21
@joe-shmo saidThe money has to be coming from somewhere.
"IF businesses could get higher prices for their goods, they'd already charge them."
The cost to make said good is tied to labor rates. The money has to be coming from somewhere to pay the increased wages to produce goods and services. Are you trying to tell me the rich just eat the lost profit and sell their goods at the same price out of the kindness of their bleeding hearts? They don't... they pass the increased cost to the consumer...
Oh yeah, that pesky problem. We always forget about that. Reminds me of Bernie using the word 'free' a a lot.
21 Feb 21
1 edit
@joe-shmo saidIf they profitably can, they do and if they profitably can't they don't.
"IF businesses could get higher prices for their goods, they'd already charge them."
The cost to make said good is tied to labor rates. The money has to be coming from somewhere to pay the increased wages to produce goods and services. Are you trying to tell me the rich just eat the lost profit and sell their goods at the same price out of the kindness of their bleeding hearts? They don't... they pass the increased cost to the consumer...
Google "Supply and Demand".
21 Feb 21
@joe-shmo said"The cost to make said good is tied to labor rates. "
"IF businesses could get higher prices for their goods, they'd already charge them."
The cost to make said good is tied to labor rates. The money has to be coming from somewhere to pay the increased wages to produce goods and services. Are you trying to tell me the rich just eat the lost profit and sell their goods at the same price out of the kindness of their bleeding hearts? They don't... they pass the increased cost to the consumer...
That's irrelevant for large corporations
"Are you trying to tell me the rich just eat the lost profit and sell their goods at the same price out of the kindness of their bleeding hearts? "
No. They will simply make less profit. Because we can tell them that making profit by paying starvation wages will no longer be tolerated.
"They don't... they pass the increased cost to the consumer..."
It has been proven, time and again, that costs have little to do with price. They charge as much as they can get away with. Wherever in the US and the world for that matter where corporations have been forced to pay higher minimum wage prices have not skyrocket.
The little if any price increase is offset by the fact that the worker has double the bloody money. So let mcdonalds double their big mac price (they won't). The employer will simply have more money to afford it (or buy something else). You don't have to eat at McDonalds. You do have to fix your car sometime. You have to get your kid to the doctor. Having more money allows that "luxury". It allows people to not work 80 hours weeks and fuk up their health.
In other news, the minimum wage has been 7.25 for 20 years and prices have still gone up.
21 Feb 21
As of right now, the minimum wage is at a historical low as compared to the average wage:
"With a mean value of 44.45%, the hypothetical minimum-wage weekly earnings hit their high point of 57.39% of the average weekly earnings in February 1968. The low point in the graph was 33.47% in January 2021—the last available data at the time of this writing."
https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2021/02/comparing-the-minimum-wage-with-the-average-wage/
Meanwhile, corporate profits have outstripped employee compensation at a record rate:
"Eyeballing the data leads to two major conclusions. First, corporate profits move a lot, especially in response to general business activity. Profits tend to tank during recessions (noted with gray bars), which is understandable. After all, it’s well understood that investing in a business is a risky undertaking that deserves and often acquires compensation. Employee income is much more stable, but still suffers during recessions. Second, the trends of the two series tend to track each other over several decades, reflecting the general growth of the economy. The past decade and a half seems to be different, though. Never have corporate profits outgrown employee compensation so clearly and for so long."
https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2018/08/corporate-profits-versus-labor-income/
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21 Feb 21
4 edits
@zahlanzi said"The cost to make said good is tied to labor rates." - @joe-shmo
"The cost to make said good is tied to labor rates. "
That's irrelevant for large corporations
"Are you trying to tell me the rich just eat the lost profit and sell their goods at the same price out of the kindness of their bleeding hearts? "
No. They will simply make less profit. Because we can tell them that making profit by paying starvation wages will no longer be ...[text shortened]... h.
In other news, the minimum wage has been 7.25 for 20 years and prices have still gone up.
That's irrelevant for large corporations - @zahlanzi
Care to elaborate?
"Are you trying to tell me the rich just eat the lost profit and sell their goods at the same price out of the kindness of their bleeding hearts? " - @joe-shmo
No. They will simply make less profit. Because we can tell them that making profit by paying starvation wages will no longer be tolerated. - @zahlanzi
In other words: the government will be force to control the "free market" to ensure this cockamamie scheme works out...
"They don't... they pass the increased cost to the consumer..." - @joe-shmo
It has been proven, time and again, that costs have little to do with price. They charge as much as they can get away with. Wherever in the US and the world for that matter where corporations have been forced to pay higher minimum wage prices have not skyrocket. - @zahlanzi
The evidence supporting your claim should be easy to provide , perfectly clear then... also, it better be a similar magnitude change ( i.e. doubling )
"In other news, the minimum wage has been 7.25 for 20 years and prices have still gone up." - @zahlanzi
Yeah...probably the result of the jump from $5.15
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22 Feb 21
1 edit
@no1marauder said"Never have corporate profits outgrown employee compensation so clearly and for so long."
As of right now, the minimum wage is at a historical low as compared to the average wage:
"With a mean value of 44.45%, the hypothetical minimum-wage weekly earnings hit their high point of 57.39% of the average weekly earnings in February 1968. The low point in the graph was 33.47% in January 2021—the last available data at the time of this writing."
https://fredbl ...[text shortened]... for so long."[/b]
https://fredblog.stlouisfed.org/2018/08/corporate-profits-versus-labor-income/
I'm not saying corporations aren't greedy...they are! How does raising the minimum wage change that fact?
22 Feb 21
@no1marauder saidMarauder, delving into the beauty of capitalism, are you? Or are you meaning that people who want Supply just Demand supply from someone who has it. Like, gimme it.
If they profitably can, they do and if they profitably can't they don't.
Google "Supply and Demand".
What you talkin' bout, Marauder?
22 Feb 21
1 edit
@joe-shmo saidI never have known how y'all define greedy. If I can sell my old bike for $100 when it is only worth $75, am I greedy? If a corporate board raises prices on their widgets so that their stokckholders will make more money, is that greed? Average Joe says it is good management, good business. However, if they price themselves out of the market, they will lose customers, lose money. But, hey everybody, that is their business. None of our business. Shop elsewhere. This is why you love living in America.
"Never have corporate profits outgrown employee compensation so clearly and for so long."
I'm not saying corporations aren't greedy...they are! How does raising the minimum wage change that fact?
Lord, you libs PLEASE don't tell us that the government should come bail them out. That of course is your logic if you believe the govt should fix the problems in Texas.
I pride my logic on this post.
22 Feb 21
1 edit
@phranny saidI take issue with highlighted sentence#1. What is your liberal-eze about making money 'at any cost to their workers'". And costs to people who buy their products,,(whose arms are not being twisted). Dont buy it. Jesus. Anyway, explain at any cost to their workers. Whew. Does your heart really bleed?
@AverageJoe1 The fac large, rich corporations whose objective is to make money for themselves at any cost to their workers and those who consume their products and services. Democrats are not interested in destroying wealth or preventing anyone from becoming rich. They are, however, interested in capitalism that works for the many rather than the few.
Then, #2, Dems are not interested in destroying wealth or preventing someone from coming rich....why say that, as you are telling a TOTAL TOTAL falsehood to the forum. Just check out Elizabeth Warren for example. She wants to lay a heavy tax not ONLy on income of the rich, she wants to invent a WEALTH TAX....tax a guy each year on whatever wealth he has. Every year, ostensibly re-taxing the same money every year. Phranny, do you think that that just MIGHT keep him from getting rich?
You fellers need to research stuff a bit before you make certain people, like me, have to type and type and type explaining the most obvious things to you.
And I haven't even Mentioned what Kamala is up to, who will be president shortly. Biden kinda losin' it, dont you think?