13 Jul 07
Originally posted by Rajk999Actually, Cuba is also a society based on a power-structure, where some
You need a few years in Cuba.
People generally do not appreciate what they have until they loose it.
people have more than others. That's not what I'm advocating at all. That
would be like stepping on the stone instead of moving forward, the way I see
it.
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by stockenYou missed my point totally.
Actually, Cuba is also a society based on a power-structure, where some
people have more than others. That's not what I'm advocating at all. That
would be like stepping on the stone instead of moving forward, the way I see
it.
You live a FREE democratic society, and yet you complain that you do not have enough freedom.
Cuba has even less freedom and all societies have power structures and inequalities. There is no way to avoid that.
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by Rajk999Try living in North Korea for a few years, then you'll really appreciate what you have. Or one of the charming Islamic republics.
You missed my point totally.
You live a FREE democratic society, and yet you complain that you do not have enough freedom.
Cuba has even less freedom and all societies have power structures and inequalities. There is no way to avoid that.
13 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999No, it is you who are missing the point. I'm not arguing that we're
You missed my point totally.
You live a FREE democratic society, and yet you complain that you do not have enough freedom.
Cuba has even less freedom and all societies have power structures and inequalities. There is no way to avoid that.
not more comfortable than in many other socities. The issue is not
whether or not the democracy we live in is better than any other version
of control society. The issue is freedom. You claim that we're free, but I
say we've merely replaced one form of control with another (granted
kinder if you're an easy to control kind of person).
I want freedom. Total and complete. If I feel like visiting Egypt for a trip
to see the great pyramids, then I'll just go there and do that. If I wish to
explore the galaxy either through telescope or possibly a spaceship once
we have such available, I can do that. That's freedom. When I can
do anything that anyone else can do and no one stands in the way
saying: "No, you can't do that even though it's perfectly harmless to
everyone because it would make me look less powerful and privileged
and we can't have that."
I want all forms of power gone. I can't control you, you can't control me
and no one has any rights to control anyone else. That's freedom.
Granted, if you're into the killing business or some other occupation
which would impose on other people's rights, then you're shot out of
luck, but most people, I think, really just want to be left alone to be able
to pursue their own interests. We're social animals, so I doubt very much
that we'll become hermit zealots. We'll just be a little bit happier and
free.
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by stockenOK, think it through. No one has power over another, so if you were a child you would have gone to school how many days altogether? One? Two? Now you are illiterate and have come of age. How are you supporting yourself? Where are you getting your food from? Even if the state give you an allowance because you have a pulse, why should someone work at a grocery store for free? And why should they farm without getting paid for it? And why should a truck driver drive the food from point A to point B without getting paid for it? Why should anyone do anything? And wouldn't being illiterate limit your options somewhat? And I'm assuming you were raised in a kabbutz or something because I'm not sure how your parents would raise you if they had no power over you at all, but still had responsibility for you. Can you fill in the blanks? And how do people spend their days? You can't say "doing what they want" because a lot of what I like requires people to do things they don't like in exchange for being paid.
Well, I have to do it, you all understand. This is actually something
that's been puzzling me since day one. When my pink butt first emerged
from my mothers cave of creation (yes, I came butt first) my highly
developed senses recorded an oddity. At the time I couldn't figure it out,
and to tell the truth, with all my current knowledge and insight, I ...[text shortened]... opment (or whatever will be considered "good" in this new society).
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by AThousandYoungWell, here's where fantasy enters the game. 🙂
How are you going to equalize power without amassing power yourself?
Either advocate this kind of system until people start thinking for
themselves that it's best in the long run for everyone, assuming that's
the conclusion people will make, or (my favourite)...
...inventing shield technology that will allow us to carry around our own
personal shields. While wearing a shield no one can hurt us physically,
but more importantly, we can't hurt anyone else either (should be
built-in, untamperable part of the shield technology). 😵
Like I said, fantasy. 🙂 It is easy to see the problems of this world, much
harder to fix them since it requires the corporation of everyone. And the
day every human agrees on something is the day daisies will grow in the
middle of wint... the day snow will fall in the middle of summer.
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by pawnhandlerYou know, raising a child is not as complicated as we make it. If the child
OK, think it through. No one has power over another, so if you were a child you would have gone to school how many days altogether? One? Two? Now you are illiterate and have come of age. How are you supporting yourself? Where are you getting your food from? Even if the state give you an allowance because you have a pulse, why should someone work at ...[text shortened]... t of what I like requires people to do things they don't like in exchange for being paid.
isn't interesting in learning anything but that which (s)he requires to survive
and lead a basic life, so be it. Who's to say that's a bad thing? If no one can
exercise control over this person, (s)he'll still be able to lead a fullfilling life
and if one day (s)he wants to learn about this or that (s)he's free to take it
up at any stage in life. Basically, if we're not controlled all the time we're
probably not such a big pain in the butt for others either.
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by stockenEver read Dune? They have such shields that neutralized all modern and futuristic weapons.
Well, here's where fantasy enters the game. 🙂
Either advocate this kind of system until people start thinking for
themselves that it's best in the long run for everyone, assuming that's
the conclusion people will make, or (my favourite)...
...inventing shield technology that will allow us to carry around our own
personal shields. While wearing a ...[text shortened]... daisies will grow in the
middle of wint... the day snow will fall in the middle of summer.
The learned new ways to use knives to kill each other.
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by stockenYou're obviously very young and not a parent. Your ideas are puerile and poorly thought out.
You know, raising a child is not as complicated as we make it. If the child
isn't interesting in learning anything but that which (s)he requires to survive
and lead a basic life, so be it. Who's to say that's a bad thing? If no one can
exercise control over this person, (s)he'll still be able to lead a fullfilling life
and if one day (s)he wants to l ...[text shortened]... ntrolled all the time we're
probably not such a big pain in the butt for others either.
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by AThousandYoungIs that so? Well, it wouldn't make for very interesting reading if the shields
Ever read Dune? They have such shields that neutralized all modern and futuristic weapons.
The learned new ways to use knives to kill each other.
were impenetrable, would it?
See your point though. 🙂
13 Jul 07
2 edits
Originally posted by Sam The ShamYes, young and puerile. Perfect description of what I'd like to think of
You're obviously very young and not a parent. Your ideas are puerile and poorly thought out.
me. But I do think things through before I speak, I assure you. It's a
dream, the kind of society I'd like to see. Mostly because of human
nature I guess. But to say that we're free as it is, is to lie to ourselves.
Sure it could be worse. You could get stuck with your balls in a carburettor
somehow, I suppose. That wouldn't be very exciting at all, would it? Still,
I don't think it's unreasonable to want more. I'm sure at one time people
were saying that life without a king is an impossible thought. Surely the
king, the ruler under God, was very much needed in any good, civilised
country?
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by stockenBut what if a child isn't interested in even learning that much? Lots of kids come from families and towns where reading is put down. They learn to read anyway because the laws say they have to be educated. But without such laws what will happen? How can you not end up with a class system when you have a large proportion of illiterate people because they weren't interesting in learning to read?
You know, raising a child is not as complicated as we make it. If the child
isn't interesting in learning anything but that which (s)he requires to survive
and lead a basic life, so be it. Who's to say that's a bad thing? If no one can
exercise control over this person, (s)he'll still be able to lead a fullfilling life
and if one day (s)he wants to l ...[text shortened]... ntrolled all the time we're
probably not such a big pain in the butt for others either.
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by pawnhandlerPeople has survived for thousands of years without much knowledge at
But what if a child isn't interested in even learning that much? Lots of kids come from families and towns where reading is put down. They learn to read anyway because the laws say they have to be educated. But without such laws what will happen? How can you not end up with a class system when you have a large proportion of illiterate people because they weren't interesting in learning to read?
all. Just the basics to survive, and we're usually more than willing to learn
that. I have a hard time imagining someone who doesn't want to learn
the basics. Not being able to read should be no problem if no one is in a
position of control, such that they can take advantage of you. If you
don't care jack about space travel, no one can say to you that you must
come help fund this or that project.
By the way, for food I suggest we finally invent the food replicator so we
won't have to harm any animals. And the shields should be such that we
can walk around buttnaked on antarctica and still surrounded by a perfect
temperature for a human being. So, we all have food and can sleep
wherever. Now, all is well, educated or not.