13 Jul 07
Originally posted by der schwarze RitterLet me put it this way, can I, if I so choose, have every bit of freedom
Millions of people from the Third World, with far less wealth than I gather you have, arrive in the West every year. You should buck up and grow a backbone.
that say Donald Trump does not enjoy? I think not. It's easy to say to
someone that they can go live in a place far worse than where they
already are (and because there are places far worse, we should accept
what we have), but it's quite another to say: here, I'll share equal with
you what I have. Even if what you have is the result of loads of people
working their backs off without enough compensation so you can make
more money. Money rules these days. Not kings, dictators or religious
freaks, but money. I'm guessing that next it will be some other way for
control freaks to gain power over the lesser fortunate. The whole thread
is about that. Not about what you can or cannot do with yourself and your
options. It's about recognising that even though the general man here in
the west is better off in terms of comfort and some freedom of
movement, we're not really free. It's just another whip lashing our backs.
If we stop doing the bidding of those with money, we'll end up with
nothing. Used to be all you needed was a spear, good friends and two
feet and nature provided the rest. My friend, that you must
agree is total freedom. Try doing something like that now and see how
well it goes. There will always be someone claiming they "own" this or
that land and you have no "right" to be free (unless you choose to go
somewhere else where food is not so plenty).
(I really like this whole native indian complaint I got going here. It
makes sense too. Sorry to say, my time's up. Later.)
13 Jul 07
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Originally posted by jammerWell, I'm advocating that fourth choice, so...
If you're working for "some big company", you're doing it by your own choice .. right?
My next question comes straight from your own words ... "Now, why is it that a reasonable fella like yourself is working under such stupid conditions?"
So your problem, IMO, is self-inflicted.
If you don't like the way society is, you have choices to make.
1. Sell out you a slave to money. It's a choice.
Life isn't fair and nobody owes you anything.
Why is everyone so upset!? Did I hit a nerve or something? Just admit it,
already. There really is no way for everyone to gain the kind of wealth
and freedom that only a handful of people in the west are enjoying, and
it's because they control us, willingly or not. Stripping naked and jumping
around in the forest is a sure-fired way to be thrown into an asylum (now
talk about control and having your freedom restricted, eh?).
Now I really must leave the computer, so you can all calm
down now. Turn on your TV:s, watch some meaningless soap opera and
be comfortable that our western way of living is the solution to all the
problems in the world, if it makes you feel better. 😵
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by stockenyou didn't hit a nerve, you just sound silly.
Well, I'm advocating that fourth choice, so...
Why is everyone so upset!? Did I hit a nerve or something? Just admit it,
already. There really is no way for everyone to gain the kind of wealth
and freedom that only a handful of people in the west are enjoying, and
it's because they control us, willingly or not. Stripping naked and jumping
around ...[text shortened]... of living is the solution to all the
problems in the world, if it makes you feel better. 😵
13 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by stockenCongratulations on thinking a little out of the box. But don't think you're the first, nor that you are even a minority.
Ok? So, we have a... what?.. illiteracy problem here? I'll shorten it down for
you then. We can call it: "Modern day oppression for dummies".
This society? The one we in the west call the free, democratic society? It's
not really free. It's what I like to call the biggest hoax since
Muhammed. It's like that whole Morpheus-"the world that has been pulled
over your eyes" kind of thing.
You'd be hard pressed to find anyone so shallow as to simply proclaim:
"democracy = good, freedom ... communism = bad, oppression". Do a little more reading and you'll find many who acknowledge grave pitfalls of democracy, even among those who think democracy is far better than communism.
Democracy does little to guarantee freedom and pure democracy can be quite oppressive.
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by stockenWhat utter garbage. That 'free' soceity still had bills to pay and work to do in order to survive. They did not use money but they had to barter to get food etc from other tribes. Seems to me that your problem is with the word 'money' and the accumulation of wealth.
Used to be all you needed was a spear, good friends and two
feet and nature provided the rest. My friend, that you must
agree is total freedom. .)
13 Jul 07
Originally posted by stockenI don't agree with you. The Indians had intertribal warfare, disease, starvation, bad hygiene, illiteracy, no indoor plumbing, no central heat and air, no benefits of globalization, no modern medicine, etc., and if that weren't bad enough, you had to deal with some foreign colonial power landing on your shores, bringing whiskey and small pox. I suggest you rent Mel Gibson's Mesoamerican epic, "Apocalypto" the next time you get a stiffie for the "good life."
blah, blah, blah, unhappy, blah, blah, blah, socialism rocks!, blah, blah...Used to be all you needed was a spear, good friends and two
feet and nature provided the rest. My friend, that you must
agree is total freedom. Try doing something like that now and see how
well it goes. There will always be someone claiming they "own" this or
t ...[text shortened]... ndian complaint I got going here. It
makes sense too. Sorry to say, my time's up. Later.)
14 Jul 07
Originally posted by der schwarze RitterYeah, 'cause that movie is just like a... documentary or something, ain't
I don't agree with you. The Indians had intertribal warfare, disease, starvation, bad hygiene, illiteracy, no indoor plumbing, no central heat and air, no benefits of globalization, no modern medicine, etc., and if that weren't bad enough, you had to deal with some foreign colonial power landing on your shores, bringing whiskey and small pox. I ...[text shortened]... on's Mesoamerican epic, "Apocalypto" the next time you get a stiffie for the "good life."
it? Kinda like 300, or the last samurai. Hey, if you want to know about
history, go rent a hollywood production. That's what I always say.
They're just so... believable.
And even though I have to admit that native americans weren't living in
ideal societies either (with the chief, religion and occassional tribal wars -
though this doesn't apply to all natives), you sure paint the picture with
some poorly chosen colours there. They were actually doing quite well in
terms of freedom and shared resources until those filthy Europeans
(You know? The ones not welcome in Europe anymore?*) came along
with their diseases, property claims, the booze and most dubious sense
of morality.
But of course, they had the freedom to choose to go somewhere else
and live their lives, right? So, it's not like our ancestors really pushed
them to the cliff or anything. In fact, seeing as how well lots of their
grand grand grand... something children are doing today, I think we can
fairly say that it's all turned out for the better, right? I mean, they're not
running around half naked anymore, doing God only knows what
unchristian things they were doing, and taking care of each other. I
mean that's just the worst. How they cared for each other. Hubba!
* Sorry, I just couldn't resist. 😵
14 Jul 07
Originally posted by stockenYour fourth choice doesn't make sense. A world in which people only do what they feel like doing will have an incredibly high mortality rate and eventually die out. If you think you are creating a workable proposal then you are leaving out a whole lot of information.
Well, I'm advocating that fourth choice, so...
Why is everyone so upset!? Did I hit a nerve or something? Just admit it,
already. There really is no way for everyone to gain the kind of wealth
and freedom that only a handful of people in the west are enjoying, and
it's because they control us, willingly or not. Stripping naked and jumping
around ...[text shortened]... of living is the solution to all the
problems in the world, if it makes you feel better. 😵
14 Jul 07
Originally posted by stockenI strongly recommend that you read "Understanding Power" by Noam Chomsky. It's accessible reading, quite eye-opening, and articulates many of the things that seem to be on your mind. Seriously: go to a bookstore and read even the first dozen pages. See what he says about the mainstream media, the nature of government institutions and capitalism, and much more besides.
Well, I have to do it, you all understand. This is actually something
that's been puzzling me since day one. When my pink butt first emerged
from my mothers cave of creation (yes, I came butt first) my highly
developed senses recorded an oddity. At the time I couldn't figure it out,
and to tell the truth, with all my current knowledge and insight, I ...[text shortened]... opment (or whatever will be considered "good" in this new society).
Incidentally, there are two main strands of communism: authoritarian and libertarian. The authoritarian strand was championed by Lenin and the Russian Bolshevists, and it slid straight into dictatorship just as prominent libertarian communists of the day warned it would. Libertarian communists and "anarchosyndicalists" do not desire a "dictatorship of the proletariat", but call rather for replacing the top-down "governing of men" with the bottom-up "administrating of things" -- meaning cooperative participatory economics (true democracy) and the dismantling of all oppressive institutions of the State. I can recommend a book or two about all that if you're curious.
14 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by stockenIt's a hopeless task. You're dealing with a bunch of technocrats who are incapable of thinking outside of the system they've been trained for. Their entire world view is just a rote regurgitation of their base indoctrination. So thoroughly has their identity been enmeshed with the present system for which they've been programmed that they're incapable of imagining that any other system is feasible. Although they will consciously deny it, at a gut level they're like Dr. Pangloss in that they think this really is the best of all possible worlds and any attempts to improve it are either misguided or unworkable, and will zealously defend their own exploitation to the very end. I pity the fools.
Yeah, 'cause that movie is just like a... documentary or something, ain't
it? Kinda like 300, or the last samurai. Hey, if you want to know about
history, go rent a hollywood production. That's what I always say.
They're just so... believable.
And even though I have to admit that native americans weren't living in
ideal societies either (wi worst. How they cared for each other. Hubba!
* Sorry, I just couldn't resist. 😵
14 Jul 07
Originally posted by rwingettI am such a fool. Why is it that I cant trust a man whose plan includes killing off the wealthy capitalists, and giving the nations resources to a bunch of morons who I dont have a clue what to do with it. I need help. Someone please help, Im so stupid.
.... I pity the fools.
14 Jul 07
Originally posted by Rajk999Tell me, stupid, whose plan are you babbling on about?
I am such a fool. Why is it that I cant trust a man whose plan includes killing off the wealthy capitalists, and giving the nations resources to a bunch of morons who I dont have a clue what to do with it. I need help. Someone please help, Im so stupid.
14 Jul 07
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettYours ... smarty. I cant remember the name of the thread but if you had your way you wanted :
Tell me, stupid, whose plan are you babbling on about?
1. the streets ankle deep in the blood of the wealthy capitallists (although you did acknowledge that would end in too much power in your hands)
2. the resources to be owned collectively by the people and there is to be no private ownership of the means of production.