Originally posted by zeeblebotOh, absolutely, zeeble, I'm not attempting to gainsay the causation, I'm just saying that I think the tyranny of one particular idea is needed and a messy compromise (for once - and not denying the efficacy of messy compromises some of the time) isn't doing anyone (the hanging and flogging brigade, the rehabilitationists, the liberals or indeed the inmates) any favours at all.
(was going to post this but forgot: "let's ask amaurote" ....)
it's all those legislators/executors pulling the strings every which way .... what would you expect but a hodgepodge? ...
I will go so far as to say that the problem is a bit more nuanced and embedded in the nature of bureaucracy rather than a problem instigated by legislators, though - I can't speak for prison systems in other countries, but here "civilianization" (of personnel rather than philosophy, not that you'd know from all the drivel that pours through the mission statements, SLAs and action plans) driven by finance and politics (the desire to break the Prison Officers' Association in the 1980s) rather than an honest belief in rehabilitation and treatment, a use of privatization for the same end, and a general failure of the various departmental heads in individual prisons to recognize that they are in fact meant to be working together to serve society, not ignoring or at best tolerating each other like a series of island universes.
My avatar comes and goes like a dirty-macintoshed man in a public park, it's just one of those things.
Originally posted by AmauroteLike many of Britains institutions our prisons appear to be a bureaucratic mix of ideas bungled along since the victorians based on the political will of the day.
Oh, absolutely, zeeble, I'm not attempting to gainsay the causation, I'm just saying that I think the tyranny of one particular idea is needed and a messy compromise (for once - and not denying the efficacy of messy compromises some of the time) isn't doing anyone (the hanging and flogging brigade, the rehabilitationists, the liberals or indeed the inmates) ...[text shortened]... and goes like a dirty-macintoshed man in a public park, it's just one of those things.
If the politics was taken out of prisons then the service could be inmate focussed.
Hospitals are patient focussed.
Schools are child focussed.
Prisons should try to inmate focussed.
Locking up a 7 month pregnant woman because her 14 year old son didn't didn't go school highlights how low we have fallen.
I agree, but the UK prison service should adopt a model more like on continental europe, with conjunical visits etc...
I think Community punishments would be far more effective than just locking someone up ie for 1st offences, minor offences etc-
Doing more forced work in the community, to clean up areas that the councils can not be bothered with.
More help to get convicts a stable home & job. More looking into the issues of why they are offending.
Effective drug treatment, drug users are some of the worst criminals and cause so many problems in prisons, possibly segregation is the answer.
One thing that narks me is some peoples attitude that a drug abuser isnt a proper convict- because they have a transparent reason as to why they offend? i totally disagree. These people are scum.
Just some thoughts
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Originally posted by bbi2I agree criminal drug addicts are a menace to society. The priority must be to get these people clean. Easier said than done, not cheap but the alternatives (repeated crime and repeated prison)are expensive too.
I agree, but the UK prison service should adopt a model more like on continental europe, with conjunical visits etc...
One thing that narks me is some peoples attitude that a drug abuser isnt a proper convict- because they have a transparent reason as to why they offend? i totally disagree. These people are scum.
Just some thoughts
🙄
Originally posted by AmauroteWhat are Scandinaviaqn-type prisons? Alao what is wrong with the 'Silent Sysyem', as formerly practised in America, for dealing with the worst criminals?
As I've said before on several occasions on this site, as someone who works in four prisons and has seen many more, I have no particular objection to a prison being administered for the purposes of rehabilitation, punishment, containment or education: however, I think it's about time the prison service I work for made up its mind which of those imperatives ...[text shortened]... to the same old problems...and a little bit of Northcote Parkinson logic might also help.
Originally posted by NargagunaScandinavian-type prison = prison system where the focus of the system is on housing, containing and rehabilitating serious offenders, and where petty offenders are punished primarily with non-custodial sentences. The prison population and bureaucracy is much smaller.
What are Scandinaviaqn-type prisons? Alao what is wrong with the 'Silent Sysyem', as formerly practised in America, for dealing with the worst criminals?
The Silent System is just a new name for a very old idea, namely the Panopticon concept that you should isolate all inmates. In fact, it goes back even further than that...in some prisons they had a theory that inmates could degrade each other through the expressions on their face, so they made them all wear vizards. If you want to turn petty offenders into absolutely angry psychopaths who will amplify their crimes upon release, this is definitely the kind of system you would advocate.
i think the silent system and taking away too many freedoms whilst an offender is in prison will only develop hate towards the system and the society.
is it not bad enough these people are seperated from their families and the people they love?
Its an old saying but you judge a society by how u treat ur prisoners.
i dont think we need to go backwards, sure we need prisons, but we dont need them to be worse than they already are.
Are you aware that in England, convicts get to see their wives/children AT THE MOST twice a month and for 1 or 2 hours each time????
FFS, someone who has commited a first offence or a minor crime should not be treated like this IMO. and then the governement wonders why the re-offending rates are sky high... i dont have the figures to hand but the likely hood of someone reoffending within 2 years is 50-60%+ , it might be higher
please dont get me wrong, we need prisons, and people do need to be punished, but humanely. many inmates are malnurished in our prisons due to poor diet and lack of food.
i think there should be 2 types of prisons, 1 for people with a drug problem and one for people who are drug free, this would reduce alot of problems for people who dont take drugs etc..
People with drug problems should not be given special treatment, they should still be kept in prisons, just seperated.
one other thing that pisses me off about the Prisons service (apart from the huge number of young people that we lock up) is the special treatment of nonses/ sex offenders / paedaphiles. this f**kers get seperated from regular prisoners for there own safety, get special treatment and often get sent quickly to low category prisons as they are considered a lower risk/ escape risk to the prison service so end up getting a very easy time in prison compared to regular people. i think this should end.
MY 2 cents! ha
im curious if anyone has any knowledge of the US penal system, from the media ive learnt to belive its one of the worst in the world, rappings, violence etc...
My family band was in a prison crusade about 2 weeks ago, there was 20 singing groups, and about 20 prisons, and we rotated prisons everyday. And it tears me up to go there, I feel so sorry for them, looking at them, they look like wonderful people to me, they also really enjoy the music, they thank us so many times, and the prisoners will come up to me and say, "Dont ever start into drugs, they will ruin you life even if you think you got it under control". 80% is in there because of drugs. From all the prisons I been in, I honestly think that prisons do them good, helps them think through things a bit before they enter back into the world
Originally posted by AmauroteI was thinking about the possible merits of the 'Silent System' in dealing with the worst criminals. (a) To stop them contaminating others; (b) to let them reflect on their crimes ; and (c) to relieve the prison staff and give them more time to devote to the rehabilation of the reletively petty criminals .
Scandinavian-type prison = prison system where the focus of the system is on housing, containing and rehabilitating serious offenders, and where petty offenders are punished primarily with non-custodial sentences. The prison population and bureaucracy is much smaller.
The Silent System is just a new name for a very old idea, namely the Panopticon concept ...[text shortened]... ill amplify their crimes upon release, this is definitely the kind of system you would advocate.
Originally posted by NargagunaThere is much merit in your last point, which I'm wholly in agreement with, but I think the problem with using isolation torture like that is that so many hardened criminals and psychopaths are perfectly happy in their own company, and in fact find it much easier to cope that way. HMP Grendon works on exactly the opposite principle - constantly bringing inmates together and challenging their criminal motivations, perverse preconceptions and offending behaviour - and for a long time had much success. If you lock a madman up with himself for ten years, you're accumulating his demons: sooner or later that cell is going to be unlocked, and he is going to be released, and then society is going to have to pick up all the original pieces and then some.
I was thinking about the possible merits of the 'Silent System' in dealing with the worst criminals. (a) To stop them contaminating others; (b) to let them reflect on their crimes ; and (c) to relieve the prison staff and give them more time to devote to the rehabilation of the reletively petty criminals .
Originally posted by AmauroteWell clearly you have a much better knowledge of prisons than I have so I do not intend to press this point further except to say that although Dickens did not approve of what he saw in Philadephia he gives the impression that those who had been placed in solitary confinement for a long period were not likely to cause any more trouble on release.
There is much merit in your last point, which I'm wholly in agreement with, but I think the problem with using isolation torture like that is that so many hardened criminals and psychopaths are perfectly happy in their own company, and in fact find it much easier to cope that way. HMP Grendon works on exactly the opposite principle - constantly bringing inm ...[text shortened]... released, and then society is going to have to pick up all the original pieces and then some.
I should be interested to know your reaction to his account which is contained in his "American Notes".
Originally posted by AmauroteI agree with what your saying.
There is much merit in your last point, which I'm wholly in agreement with, but I think the problem with using isolation torture like that is that so many hardened criminals and psychopaths are perfectly happy in their own company, and in fact find it much easier to cope that way. HMP Grendon works on exactly the opposite principle - constantly bringing inm ...[text shortened]... released, and then society is going to have to pick up all the original pieces and then some.
I think the fact that prisons take away peoples freedoms is enough that we should not also try to inflict more pain and suffering on that person. The people in our prisons (around 70k) our part of our community and i think more efforts should be made to integrate them back in, not try and lock someone up and throw away the key, this may be ok for sex offenders and murderers but when do u draw the line?
what about the many young offenders in YOI who commit serious crimes as a minor, what should we do with them?
why do we need to lock up so many young people?
surely community sentences, electronic tagging, forced labour (ie painting over graffitti, building walls, gardening) etc would be far more suitable, productive and benefit victims of crime too.
i know i would be happier seeing these drug addicts who go around thiefing and causing a nuisance being forcibaly made to sweep roads, pick up litter etc around my town.
i hope tony blair continues with the penal reform and allows more family visits for inmates to see their partners/ children. it is so sad that many men lose their wives whilst in prison and see their children maybe 10 times per year for 1 hour. its a disgrace in the 20th C.
Originally posted by invigorateEasy solution: Pedophiles get sent to a escape-proof penal colony for 25 years no less on a deserted Island patrolled by the Coast Guard. Escapees are shot on sight.
I would argue, that only the very violent need to kept in prison. We shouldn't lock up, drug addicts, burgalars non fine payers etc.
Prison breeds violent people and perpetuates crime.
Prison is a lazy answer. Society should try to tackle what motivated the crime in the first place.
Employing prisoners in menial work and other community orders wo ...[text shortened]... education and life skills should form the backbone of our criminal justice system.
Thoughts?
Burglers, and I mean from breaking into cars to houses, lose a hand-the dominant one; second offense, they lose the other one.
Rapists get manually castrated and sent to prison for 25 years, no less; second offense they get a penilectomy with additional 25 years in prison.
Purse snatchers get 10 years no less; second offense, 25 years, no less
Muggers same as purse snatchers
Murderers, serial killers, and armed robbers get sent to hard labor in Aluetian Islands off Alaska, ecxcept armed robbers get 25 years, no less....murderes get life and no contact with the outside world.
Pot smokers should be able to smoke in the privacy of their homes. Sellers go to prison-10 years.
Meth dealers go to prison for 25 years, no less
Mentally ill people should get treatment at the cost to multi-billion dollar corporations...not my taxes
Alcoholics' treatment should be subsidised by the alcohol industry...all of it fron burying the victims of drunk-driving accidents to people drinking mouthwash on the streets....sound feasible?
I GUARANTEE crime rates will drop!
so u want the US to adopt a Hardline prison regime?
surely you would need a lot of new prisons to cope with that!!
you already have the highest prison population in the world.
my point is that the people you hold in prison are reflective of the society that you are living in. if there are so many people breaking the law then surely the laws are wrong? or there are deep problems in your society. and by locking people up for 25 years does not solve the problem
from your post it seems that you are very afraid of crime or crime being committed against you? have u experienced many crimes against you?
since moving to berlin, ive noticed how well behaved the people are here and the lack of crime and how safe it is to travel all over the city.
i put my feet up on a public seat the other day and Herman was quick to point out this wasnt acceptable behaviour...!
one thing that concerns me about going to the US is gun crime,
the image we get is that americans are so blaze' about people being shot