29 Oct 04
Originally posted by bbarrLook at the thread name. I'm an atheist.
This is just a dumbed down ontological argument, and suffers the following flaw: First, you fail to distinguish between the concept 'God', and God. These are not the same thing. We use the former to think about and refer to the latter. So, when you argue that in virtue of the the concept 'God' existing, God must also exist, you are equivocating between ...[text shortened]... on. Any argument that entails a contradiction is incoherent, hence your argument is incoherent.
I do not believe in God as an entity, yet the concept of God (almost always refered as simply "God", like all concepts) exists and has been a very powerful force in mankind's history (negatively and positively).
No fallacy there.
- The concept of God exists and is determinant for the course of mankind.
- Concepts are almost always refered by the name of the entities they describe.
Therefore, God exists and is determinant for the course of mankind.
29 Oct 04
Originally posted by PalynkaSo what you are saying is that Gods' very existence depends upon God "making a difference" otherwise God would cease to exist. God is choice-less in this matter?
First let us define existence.
Something exists if it makes a difference. It's difference may be increasing the mass by an infinitesimal small quantity of a body, doesn't matter, if it was not there the universe would not be the same.
If you consider this, then concepts exist too. Ideals exist as they are an influence on mankind and having one or ano ...[text shortened]... erently because of it.
We can then conclude that God makes a difference and therefore exists.
Are you suggesting that there is a greater cosmic law than God?
So much for omnipotence.
This might be true if God was created by a higher God (layers of creator/creation).
In Love there is Life
Angela
29 Oct 04
Originally posted by caissad4To answer you first question: Yes. The difference is already made.
So what you are saying is that Gods' very existence depends upon God "making a difference" otherwise God would cease to exist. God is choice-less in this matter?
Are you suggesting that there is a greater cosmic law than God?
So much for omnipotence.
This might be true if God was created by a Firshigher God (layers of creator/creation).
Second question: Omnipotence is not included in my definition of God, yet if you wish to consider it, he is omnipotent in this universe alone. How did God appear then? This is probably the greatest paradox in all religions. If before all things there was God then where did he come from?
The layers' theory is also suffers from the same paradox as you can always go one layer before that. But what do you find in the limit?
29 Oct 04
1 edit
5{ y posted by Palynka[/i]As Bbarr pointed out, your argument is absurd. Your conclusion that the concept of god has had a great influence on the course of mankind merely demonstrates that concepts exert a powerful influence on mankind. It does not demonstrate that god exists, except as a concept, which you had already stated in your premise.
Look at the thread name. I'm an atheist.
I do not believe in God as an entity, yet the concept of God (almost always refered as simply "God", like all concepts) exists and has been a very powerful force in mankind's history ...[text shortened]... herefore, God exists and is determinant for the course of mankind.
Did god exist before mankind thought him up? You would seem to be saying that he did not, as his existence is dependant upon mankind's ability to conceptualize him.
Does Zeus exist? He had a great influence on the history of a portion of mankind for a while. But not anymore. So does he no longer exist? Do gods pop in and out of existence as mankind thinks them up and later casts them aside?
29 Oct 04
Originally posted by rwingettDefine existence.
As Bbarr pointed out, your argument is absurd. Your conclusion that the concept of god has had a great influence on the course of mankind merely demonstrates that concepts exert a powerful influence on mankind. It does [b]not demonstrate that god exists, except as a concept, which you had already stated in your premise.
Did god exist before mankind t ...[text shortened]... xist? Do gods pop in and out of existence as mankind thinks them up and later casts them aside? [/b]