return conscientious objector to USA?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Why didn't he join the UN military then? I don't like my tax dollars going to employ someone who's unwilling to do his job because some other people across the planet who don't pay his wages don't want him to do it.

If he leaves the military and stops getting paid, where's the issue? At most he might owe them some money. Of course, it will cost you far more money if soldiers go ahead and fight in unnecessary wars. The military-industrial complex has added around $8 trillion to the US national debt since Reagan took office in 1981.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
[b]You only need to force soldiers to go to war if your war isn't justified or necesary.

Or maybe if they're like my brother who joined because it was peacetime and he didn't believe war might break out. He's very anti-war now.

If you sign up, you need to fulfill your contract.[/b]

What's included in "fulfilling your contract"? Doing everything that you are commanded to do including morally wrong actions?

This brings the "war crime" issue to mind. On one hand the military demands that every order be carried out without question, while at the same time "I was following orders" is not a valid defense for those who do and end up on the losing side.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What's included in "fulfilling your contract"? Doing everything that you are commanded to do including morally wrong actions?

This brings the "war crime" issue to mind. On one hand the military demands that every order be carried out without question, while at the same time "I was following orders" is not a valid defense for those who do and end up on the losing side.

Amen, brother! Lest we forget Calley...

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Amen, brother! Lest we forget Calley...

The My Lai Massacre Calley?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What's included in "fulfilling your contract"? Doing everything that you are commanded to do including morally wrong actions?

This brings the "war crime" issue to mind. On one hand the military demands that every order be carried out without question, while at the same time "I was following orders" is not a valid defense for those who do and end up on the losing side.

An illegal order can be lawfully disobeyed according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Originally posted by scherzo
The My Lai Massacre Calley?

The My Lai cleansing.

Originally posted by slimjim
The My Lai cleansing.

Wow. I guess this sort of atrocity should be expected when you give guns to children and send them to war. The need to justify the killing of babies will inevitably lead to calling a massacre a "cleansing". How else to live with one's failure as a human being?

Originally posted by slimjim
The My Lai cleansing.

Rape, torture and murder of civilian women and babies are "cleansing"? It's your own fault we pulled out of the war then. You soldiers were sick. I'm glad we honored those soldiers who fought to prevent it.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
Rape, torture and murder of civilian women and babies are "cleansing"? It's your own fault we pulled out of the war then. You soldiers were sick. I'm glad we honored those soldiers who fought to prevent it.

For one I didn't justify the killing of babies. That area was a Viet Cong hotbed for years. I believe it was also home to a Viet Cong Battalion who hid out in the villages during the day and attacked American troops at night and deployed mines and booby traps to inflict injury to the soldiers. When that happens it is a recipe for retaliations like My Lai. Have you ever asked the question "How many of those dead men and women were VC or VC nurses?" I bet you didn't think about it that way did you? You just follow lock step with what the Anti Military press had to print. I don't think I would have honored some soldier who was willing to kill some of his own troops. They should have shot his copter down if he had opened fire on his own men. Apparantly I'm not the only person who feels this way. Lt. Calley was never sent to prison (3 years house arrest) and he was pardoned by Nixon after veterans like myself raised Hell with their Congressmen and cleared the way for his pardon. You know veterans who have been in a combat zone and can understand what it's like to see your friends killed. It's real easy to condem somebody for war crimes when they "read" about it in some magazine. Futhermore it wasn't my fault we lost the war. I did my duty. It was people like you who turned their backs on the troops and lost the will to win the war.

Originally posted by no1marauder
An illegal order can be lawfully disobeyed according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

Or obeyed under protest.

Originally posted by slimjim
For one I didn't justify the killing of babies. That area was a Viet Cong hotbed for years. I believe it was also home to a Viet Cong Battalion who hid out in the villages during the day and attacked American troops at night and deployed mines and booby traps to inflict injury to the soldiers. When that happens it is a recipe for retaliations like My Lai. Ha ...[text shortened]... eople like you who turned their backs on the troops and lost the will to win the war.

Anyone who would justify the mass murder of civilians is a disgrace to the uniform. Calley deserved a noose, not a campaign to avoid prison.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Anyone who would justify the mass murder of civilians is a disgrace to the uniform. Calley deserved a noose, not a campaign to avoid prison.

He was suffering from temporary insanity. Isn't that one of your fellow lawyers favorite defense tactic? Big difference sitting on a ship ofshore versus sitting on a M113 yards away.

Originally posted by slimjim
He was suffering from temporary insanity. Isn't that one of your fellow lawyers favorite defense tactic? Big difference sitting on a ship ofshore versus sitting on a M113 yards away.

He was "sitting" among a bunch of unarmed civilians who he butchered.

I accept that the situation of the ground troops in Vietnam, fighting a popular insurgency, was not a pleasant one. That would have been a very good reason to not send them in the first place and/or withdraw them at the earliest opportunity. That, however, does not justify or condone in any way the indiscriminate murder of civilians. The vast bulk of ground troops did not engage in the murder of civilians as far as I know. Perhaps I am mistaken.

Originally posted by no1marauder
He was "sitting" among a bunch of unarmed civilians who he butchered.

I accept that the situation of the ground troops in Vietnam, fighting a popular insurgency, was not a pleasant one. That would have been a very good reason to not send them in the first place and/or withdraw them at the earliest opportunity. That, however, does not justify ...[text shortened]... ound troops did not engage in the murder of civilians as far as I know. Perhaps I am mistaken.

My question again is how many of those dead were VC? Apparrantly after the incident the attacks dropped significantly. War is never pretty. I ask God's forgiveness every day.

Originally posted by slimjim
My question again is how many of those dead were VC? Apparrantly after the incident the attacks dropped significantly. War is never pretty. I ask God's forgiveness every day.

If they were unarmed "VC", they should have been captured, not murdered in cold blood. Every inhabitant of the hamlet was slain, including children; were they VC, too?

Calley ordered his men to enter the village firing, though there had been no report of opposing fire. According to eyewitness reports offered after the event, several old men were bayoneted, praying women and children were shot in the back of the head, and at least one girl was raped and then killed. For his part, Calley was said to have rounded up a group of the villagers, ordered them into a ditch, and mowed them down in a fury of machine gun fire.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/trenches/my_lai.html


This is your idea of how US soldiers should conduct themselves?