Security without justice

@zahlanzi said
Retaliating with brutality and not retaliating at all are not the only 2 options, you know that, right?

How do you "nicely" retaliate for the murder of 1,200 citizens?

Keep in mind Hamas is not conveniently located in one building; they hide among civilians. It's the ultimate catch 22: you need to fight back against a terrorist attack but you'll be labeled a terrorist if you do so. So what's Israel's option here?

Again: I'm not defending Israel just trying to understand the situation they're in, just like I try to do for the Palestinians.

@zahlanzi said
"It's merely easier to point fingers at the bigger country because they look like bullies for taking the same actions. "
Of course. What do you expect? US after 9/11 invaded 2 countries and bombed them for the actions of a few terrorists. hundreds of thousands of iraqis died, most civilians, for the actions of a few. ISIS spawned as a result. Afghanistan is right back where it started. Of bloody course we're pointing fingers at the US.

You already pointed out the flaws in your own argument, so you're aware the situation is different (like Iraq having nothing to do with 9/11, no WMDs, etc).

A major reason you condemn Israel is that they're more powerful and able to do more damage to their attackers than Palestinians can. Here's what's wrong with that:

Human life is not a one-for-one equivalence, like if you kill 10 of my sheep I'll kill ten of yours. The value of your friends, family and fellow citizens can't put be put on a scale.

For example: how many attackers would you kill in order to protect your one and only child? If a man saw a gang of ten robbers leaving his house with his wife brutally murdered near the door, would he be wrong to retaliate and kill them all? Could you at least empathize and understand why he would do so?

Now also keep in mind that this attack is not a singular event. Rocket attacks from Hamas are frequent occurrences and scores of Israeli civilians have died over the years.

Many of these rocket attacks are unprovoked, meaning they were not in response to military attacks on Palestinian soil. Hamas attacks for Israel evicting Palestinians is one such example. Rocket fire for the Al-Aqsa mosque is another; Hamas' retaliation for that is not allowed under international law.

Israel's response to 1,200 Israeli deaths is in light of decades of attacks, many of which were unprovoked (in the context I just described). You have to look at the whole picture the same way you do for Hamas' attacks.

@zahlanzi said
"Did Hamas really believe that they were going to get away with killing, raping and 1200 Jews, abusing and taking 200 hostages? "
Hamas did get away with it, you idiotic garbage person. It's regular civilians that are dying in Gaza and West Bank. Not Hamas. At most some middle management bit the dust and some minor inconsequential henchmen, all of which will be easily repla ...[text shortened]... you to go fuk yourself again, when you still haven't gotten around to fuking yourself for that time.

All I feel for you is pity. You are obviously cut from the same cloth like Hamas and the Palestinians. You think its ok the kill Jews but when its time for payback you are crying like baby... next time they should think twice.

There are very few innocent people or 'regular' citizens' in Gaza, maybe those under 3 who have not yet spoken the words to "Kill Jews". The rest are guilty, they have danced in the streets and celebrated when Jews are killed. When Hamas is replaced and they commit another atrocity they will get the same treatment. One day they will get tired and stop and beg for peace.

Oh .. and your ability to communicate and your vocabulary is lacking. Were you one of the students who went to school in Gaza? I heard their education system there is very advanced ... lol 😀

One more thing. Do you know why the world is not getting involved and letting the slaughter continue? People hate Palestinians. They are evil, sick, depraved monsters who only know how death and destruction. The world, the last 15 years, has given Gaza about $1,000,000,000 US every year to build schools, hospitals and to assist the people of Gaza and they have nothing to show for it, except tunnels and weapons. Palestinians are fools and do not learn from past mistakes.

@rajk999 said
That still does not give them the right to own all that land.

I never said it does. I was countering your claim that the Bedouins are merely recent squatters. That's false. They were there long before Israeli statehood.

@vivify said
How do you "nicely" retaliate for the murder of 1,200 citizens?

Keep in mind Hamas is not conveniently located in one building; they hide among civilians. It's the ultimate catch 22: you need to fight back against a terrorist attack but you'll be labeled a terrorist if you do so. So what's Israel's option here?

Again: I'm not defending Israel just trying to understand the situation they're in, just like I try to do for the Palestinians.

"How do you "nicely" retaliate for the murder of 1,200 citizens? "
Assassinate the leadership of Hamas. Work harder to cut funding. Here is a ludicrous idea: how about not brutally opress an entire people so Hamas could easily recruit.

Heck, do what Hamas did, kill 1200 citizens? how about that totally psychotic idea. At least it's not 20000.

Israel did not retaliate. Retaliation would have been a night or two of bombings after octobor 7th,.

Israel is now killing palestinians for the sake of killing palestinians.

"Keep in mind Hamas is not conveniently located in one building; they hide among civilians."
So you bomb civilians? Without knowing who is there? You throw a bomb that would level a building because maybe a hamas terrorist might be in one of the apartments?

Do you apply this reasoning to ANY other situation? Do you burn a field of corn because you have 2 weeds somewhere you don't know where? Do you bomb the building where a couple of hostages are held? If someone holds a civilian at gunpoint, do you spray everyone in the vicinity with machine guns?

Do you napalm your entire house to kill the mosquitos that have been pestering you?

You are seriously claiming Israel, with their billions of tech and weapons from the US is so incompetent they cannot invade Gaza and kill some Hamas without so many civilian deaths? If they knew some hamas is hiding in a building, the ONLY option is to bomb it and several other buildings in the vicinity?

"Again: I'm not defending Israel just trying to understand the situation they're in, just like I try to do for the Palestinians."
YOU ARE.
You are trying to paint this as "oh, regrettable but watcha gonna do". It's irresponsible and heartless. Israel was not and is not backed into a corner. Israel is not forced to kill these civilians. Israel is not in any danger right now.

Israel is killing palestinians because it can. Because it considers them less than humans, animals . Because the US is callously supporting it and the coward Biden would not say anything to Netanyahu because he is an imbecile and fears he will lose votes in the election against Trump. I say this cowardice and complicity in the murder of palestinians will actually hurt him but that's a discussion for another time. Not like palestinians care who supplies the bombs that are killing them.

@rajk999 said
All I feel for you is pity. You are obviously cut from the same cloth like Hamas and the Palestinians. You think its ok the kill Jews but when its time for payback you are crying like baby... next time they should think twice.

There are very few innocent people or 'regular' citizens' in Gaza, maybe those under 3 who have not yet spoken the words to "Kill Jews". The re ...[text shortened]... how for it, except tunnels and weapons. Palestinians are fools and do not learn from past mistakes.

a lot of words to say that yes, you went and fuked yourself or no, you still have to get around to fuking yourself.

Right now, that's all i care to hear from you.

@zahlanzi said
"How do you "nicely" retaliate for the murder of 1,200 citizens? "
Assassinate the leadership of Hamas. Work harder to cut funding. Here is a ludicrous idea: how about not brutally opress an entire people so Hamas could easily recruit.

Heck, do what Hamas did, kill 1200 citizens? how about that totally psychotic idea. At least it's not 20000.

Israel did not retaliat ...[text shortened]... iscussion for another time. Not like palestinians care who supplies the bombs that are killing them.

Hey stupid. If the Palestinians do not want Hamas and they are innocent then let THEM KILL THE HAMAS LEADERS. You are a liar. They want Hamas, They want Jews dead. They celebrate when Jews are killed and raped.

And I like animals, dont insult them. Hamas and their supporters are cockroaches. Those dancing in the street are vermin and need to be removed from this planet.

@vivify said
You already pointed out the flaws in your own argument, so you're aware the situation is different (like Iraq having nothing to do with 9/11, no WMDs, etc).

A major reason you condemn Israel is that they're more powerful and able to do more damage to their attackers than Palestinians can. Here's what's wrong with that:

Human life is not a one-for-one equivalence, like ...[text shortened]... xt I just described). You have to look at the whole picture the same way you do for Hamas' attacks.

You keep saying you are not defending Israel.

How about we play a game, i will point out every sentence in this wall of text that actually screams you defending israel.

"For example: how many attackers would you kill in order to protect your one and only child?"
This is one. You consider Israel as defenders and the palestinians that are dying now as the attackers. You consider the only way to defend is to kill palestinians.

"If a man saw a gang of ten robbers leaving his house with his wife brutally murdered near the door, would he be wrong to retaliate and kill them all?"
This is you defending Israel. "Israel is the victim and has the right to kill Hamas. "Except they aren't killing hamas. This man knows vaguely the town those ten robbers came from and he is setting fire to all the houses in that town, all the hospitals, he cut the power, water to that town. He has been setting fire, and killing indiscriminately for 2 months now and 20000 people are dead, half of whom children. He has no idea how many of those 10 robbers that killed his wife are still alive or if they are even in that town. The ones that sent those 10 robbers to that town are definitely not there and never where


"Could you at least empathize and understand why he would do so?"
No. He is doing exactly what those 10 robbers did to him. He is making widowers, orphans and killing children. I consider Netanyahu and the IDF just as monstrous as Hamas.


I gave up at this point. Your statements became more and more unhinged and right now, for this stance, i am struggling to find much difference between you and Mott or Joe or all the lunatics that don't see palestinians as people. It could be argued somewhat that you are actually worse. That while they view Israel as justified and palestinians as animals, they are at least honest about it.

You ignore what Israel is doing and has been doing for more than half a century. You conflate Hamas with palestinians. You get sad at the deaths of 1200 israelis but not nearly as sad at the deaths of 20000 palestinians. You advocate for methods for fighting Hamas that you wouldn't in a million years support if it involved americans or europeans.


I gave you time to set me straight. To explain your views. I thought i misunderstood you that it's just a matter of having limited time and space to explain a stance on an internet forum. Instead you went the other way.

I consider this a sad day. Like suddenly finding out a friend you got along with is a white supremacist or beats his wife. And i'm like wtf, where did this come from.

@zahlanzi said
"How do you "nicely" retaliate for the murder of 1,200 citizens? "
Assassinate the leadership of Hamas. Work harder to cut funding. Here is a ludicrous idea: how about not brutally opress an entire people so Hamas could easily recruit.

Heck, do what Hamas did, kill 1200 citizens? how about that totally psychotic idea. At least it's not 20000.

I asked you what Israel's options were. You mentioned killing the leader of Hamas; the leader in a wheel chair locked up in an Israeli prison. Your answers:

"assassinate leaders of Hamas." ---They hide among civilians. Those who were killed, new leaders have taken their place. So this is a no go.

"work harder to cut funding"---Israel has a blockade around all of Gaza. How much "harder" do they need to work?

"do what Hamas did, kill 1,200 citizens".---Israel has engaged in tit-for tat retaliation in the past. Didn't work. In fact, Hamas' attacks only increased. Now they're up to killing 1,200 Israeli's at once.

The point of military retaliation is to discourage future attacks. One-for-one retaliation has not and will not work with Hamas

"Keep in mind Hamas is not conveniently located in one building; they hide among civilians."
So you bomb civilians? Without knowing who is there? You throw a bomb that would level a building because maybe a hamas terrorist might be in one of the apartments?

Do you apply this reasoning to ANY other situation? Do you burn a field of corn because you have 2 weeds somewhere you don't know where? Do you bomb the building where a couple of hostages are held? If someone holds a civilian at gunpoint, do you spray everyone in the vicinity with machine guns?

To you, 1,200 dead civilians is not a tragedy; it's a statistic. These are mere numbers to you and this is why you are unable to empathize with Israel. Humans are not comparable to "weeds" or any other such analogy. You're no different than right-wingers here who are unable to empathize with Palestinian victims.

My point has nothing to do with justifying one group over the other. There are plenty of threads where I'm defending Palestinians and there will likely be plenty more. My point is that you've decided to take a side where one guy is the clear bad guy. That makes you no different from right-wingers who've done the same.

Some issues have a side that is clearly in the wrong: America and Iraq, China and Uighurs, Russia and Ukraine. The Mid-East conflict is more complicated than that. Failure to realize this by the pro or anti-Israel supporters directly contribute to a resolution remaining a pipe dream.

@zahlanzi said
You keep saying you are not defending Israel.

Trying to understand a side is not the same as defending them. Some topics are clear-cut; the Mid-East conflict is more nuanced than say Trump's "both sides" comment regarding white supremacists.

Defense of Palestinians or Israelis is not my goal. My problem is with people treating this like it's the Justice League vs. Legion of Doom. It's not.

@vivify said
I asked you what Israel's options were. You mentioned killing the leader of Hamas; the leader in a wheel chair locked up in an Israeli prison. Your answers:

"assassinate leaders of Hamas." ---They hide among civilians. Those who were killed, new leaders have taken their place. So this is a no go.

"work harder to cut funding"---Israel has a blockade around all of Gaz ...[text shortened]... his by the pro or anti-Israel supporters directly contribute to a resolution remaining a pipe dream.

"To you, 1,200 dead civilians is not a tragedy; it's a statistic. These are mere numbers to you and this is why you are unable to empathize with Israel. "
what the actual fuk.

i wouldn't have expected this baseless disgusting accusation from you. Yesterday.

But judging from the rest of the unhinged lunacy in this post... Absolutely disgusting.

We're done

@zahlanzi said
"To you, 1,200 dead civilians is not a tragedy; it's a statistic. These are mere numbers to you and this is why you are unable to empathize with Israel. "
what the actual fuk.

i wouldn't have expected this baseless disgusting accusation from you. Yesterday.

But judging from the rest of the unhinged lunacy in this post... Absolutely disgusting.

We're done

Thread after thread I've defended Palestinians from extremist views. When I do the same for Israel, now it's "unhinged lunacy"?

Interesting.

When I pointed out on another thread that Hamas' actions are a result of oppressed people, why didn't you object then? When people accused me of siding with terrorists for empathizing with Palestinians, how exactly are you any different now?

Before you storm off, can you answer that? Is it just because the scale of atrocities is higher for one than the other? If your problem is simply "these terrorists have committed less atrocities than those terrorists", you don't have a point.

Your most spot on sentence was "I consider Netanyahu just as monstrous as Hamas". This is how I wish everyone would approach this debate.

@zahlanzi said

"If a man saw a gang of ten robbers leaving his house with his wife brutally murdered near the door, would he be wrong to retaliate and kill them all?"

Yes. Kill them all. Here is why.

- the ten men hired that one man to rob his house and murder his wife.
- all ten are complicit in that crime
-- all ten were dancing and celebrating after the murder
- they have a written plan of action to commit the crime

They are all guilty.

@vivify said
You've misread my post if you think that's what I've said.

If Palestinians stop responding with violence, Israel would also stop. The Zionists would still try to commit crimes through apartheid and stealing land; but it's a far better situation than rampant slaughter. It's also a barrier to diplomacy.

Israel stealing Palestinian land is a war crime. Full stop. In ...[text shortened]... [/b]

You're correct. That's what I wish more people on either side of the debate would focus on.

No I didn’t misread your post vifify I genuinely disagree with it. I don’t think the Israelis will stop expanding into Palestinian land in the West Bank no matter how many cheeks the Palestinians turn.
The Israelis have the power here and it’s up to them, the general populace of Israel need to physically and politically stop the settlement project and actively seek out the Palestinians who want peace and support them instead of Hamas and the like

@zahlanzi said
How about we play a game, i will point out every sentence in this wall of text that actually screams you defending israel.

One final point.

My "defending" of Israel was merely to point out how there are arguments in favor of some Israeli actions. Since I take the position that neither side is the "bad guy" I have to demonstrate why with Israel since I've done that with Palestinians.

A valid case can be made for Palestinians as well as Israel. I don't defend either of them, though there are times when one or the other is clearly in the wrong I have no problem pointing that out.

Anyone who aligns themselves with either Team Israel or Team Palestine is wrong.