Seize the oligarchs wealth...

@no1marauder said
That is hardly an accurate account of what happened in the Ukraine in 2014; it was an illegal coup of an elected President who happened to be too "pro-Russian" for certain Ukrainians and the West.

It's highly unlikely any sanctions against rich Russians is going to cause the Russian government to suddenly end its invasion of the Ukraine, but even if it was plausible, ...[text shortened]... ot directly to blame for the government's actions and it is morally repugnant to punish them for it.

You can bet that 'The Big Shots,'
would hold more sway with Putin
than the diplomats.\
What if's are easy, but, what if
Krupp had refused to make armaments, el al?

@no1marauder said
Those are all opinion pieces and yes they are histrionic.

There were legal means to remove Ukraine's President but they were not followed.

Of course they're opinion pieces what else would they be? It's a pretty common, rational, non-histrionic opinion.

@no1marauder said
Osama Bin Laden said it was OK to kill civilians in Western, democratic countries because they had voted in the governments that were engaging in oppression and violence against members of Islam.

Do you accept that related, albeit more deadly, rationale as well?

Israel bulldozes the houses of suicide bombers rendering their surviving families homeless. Also justified?

those are quite the mental sommersaults you there. Did you stretch before doing them? I worry you might pull something.


Getting back on solid ground though if you please. Oligarchs support Putin, they are complicit. Hurt them and get them to turn against him or even pressure him to back off, coupled with the general population already being against this war might just work.

@zahlanzi said
those are quite the mental sommersaults you there. Did you stretch before doing them? I worry you might pull something.


Getting back on solid ground though if you please. Oligarchs support Putin, they are complicit. Hurt them and get them to turn against him or even pressure him to back off, coupled with the general population already being against this war might just work.

An unsurprisingly non-responsive post.

OBL would say "civilians support the governments, hurt them and it might work."

Israelis would say "their families support suicide bombers; hurt them and it might work."

Do you have a principled response rather than evasion?

@zahlanzi said
those are quite the mental sommersaults you there. Did you stretch before doing them? I worry you might pull something.


Getting back on solid ground though if you please. Oligarchs support Putin, they are complicit. Hurt them and get them to turn against him or even pressure him to back off, coupled with the general population already being against this war might just work.

My point too, but stated better.

@wildgrass said
Of course they're opinion pieces what else would they be? It's a pretty common, rational, non-histrionic opinion.

It's more like GW's "the terrorists hate us because we're a democracy".

The Ukraine's been an economic basket case for a while despite Western aid. I seriously doubt people in Russia are gazing enviously at it's non-existent "success".

EDIT: One of your opinion pieces was written by Fareed Zakaria and two by Anne Applebaum. Both were enthusiastic supporters of the invasion and occupation in Iraq to make that country into a Western type, "democratic" beacon to other nations that would, therefore, quickly see how wonderfully such a project worked.

I see they've learned little.

@no1marauder said
It's more like GW's "the terrorists hate us because we're a democracy".

The Ukraine's been an economic basket case for a while despite Western aid. I seriously doubt people in Russia are gazing enviously at it's non-existent "success".

EDIT: One of your opinion pieces was written by Fareed Zakaria and two by Anne Applebaum. Both were enthusiastic supporters of the i ...[text shortened]... ould, therefore, quickly see how wonderfully such a project worked.

I see they've learned little.

I've been wrong before but,
don't think that Zakaria was a fan of The Iraq Invasion.

@contenchess said
...and it does nothing.

Russia is not North Korea.

Russia does business with a lot of countries.
China is their ally.
They don't need anything from the USA.

(I seriously doubt the world powers would even consider wildgrass' idea)

China ain't helping Putin......yet
https://news.yahoo.com/china-far-not-helping-russia-004255403.html

@jimm619 said
I've been wrong before but,
don't think that Zakaria was a fan of The Iraq Invasion.

"Well, let me first be honest and tell you what I made of it all at the time: I was in favor of the Iraq War. I believed that a modern democracy in Iraq could be a new model of politics for the region,"

https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/26/opinions/zakaria-iraq-war-lessons/index.html

@no1marauder said
"Well, let me first be honest and tell you what I made of it all at the time: I was in favor of the Iraq War. I believed that a modern democracy in Iraq could be a new model of politics for the region,"

https://www.cnn.com/2015/10/26/opinions/zakaria-iraq-war-lessons/index.html

Yeah O/K, he was and you were too.
I'm surprised by both of your revelations.
We didn't go in to, 'liberate an oppressed people.'
we went in because G.W AND HIS CRONYS saw a way to
enrich their contractor friends. A coincidence that V.P.Cheney
was a CEO at Halliburton although he had NO business credentials?
Just an inconvenience that Saddam had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11.
We were well aware that Saddam possessed no WMD....
Talk about WAG THE DOG.......Spreading democracy me arse.
Did anyone notice how quickly Saddam was killed? He knew where
the bodies were buried.......Yeah, he gassed Kurds, WE SUPPLIED THE GAS.
We supplied arms and intelligence to IRAQ in their war with IRAN.
The IRAQI WAR WAS CRIMINAL and I believe that BUSH, CHENEY AND
DONALD RUMSFELD SHOULD HAVE BEEN PROSECUTED FOR WAR CRIMES. Sure Saddam was a tyrant, but the IRAQI people, in the big picture, were better off before we decided
to do some, 'Democracy Spreadin.'

@jimm619 said
Yeah O/K, he was and you were too.
I'm surprised by both of your revelations.
We didn't go in to, 'liberate an oppressed people.'
we went in because G.W AND HIS CRONYS saw a way to
enrich their contractor friends. A coincidence that V.P.Cheney
was a CEO at Halliburton although he had NO business credentials?
Just an inconvenience that Saddam had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/1 ...[text shortened]... QI people, in the big picture, were better off before we decided
to do some, 'Democracy Spreadin.'

WG: Yeah O/K, he was and you were too.

If you're claiming I was in favor of the Iraq invasion and occupation you couldn't be more wrong.

@no1marauder said
An unsurprisingly non-responsive post.

OBL would say "civilians support the governments, hurt them and it might work."

Israelis would say "their families support suicide bombers; hurt them and it might work."

Do you have a principled response rather than evasion?

I did have a response. It was on the topic of russian oligarchs supporting putin and ,with varying degrees of directness, this invasion of a sovereign nation.

not israelis. not obl. not whatever else scenario you might slippery slope yourself int.
This situation, right now.

@no1marauder said
WG: Yeah O/K, he was and you were too.

If you're claiming I was in favor of the Iraq invasion and occupation you couldn't be more wrong.

I thought that is what you said in the
particular post I quoted in my reply.
YOU SAID,
''..."Well, let me first be honest and tell you what I made of it all at the time: I was in favor of the Iraq War. I believed that a modern democracy in Iraq could be a new model of politics for the region,"
..........Did I misinterpret?

@no1marauder said
It's more like GW's "the terrorists hate us because we're a democracy".

The Ukraine's been an economic basket case for a while despite Western aid. I seriously doubt people in Russia are gazing enviously at it's non-existent "success".

EDIT: One of your opinion pieces was written by Fareed Zakaria and two by Anne Applebaum. Both were enthusiastic supporters of the i ...[text shortened]... ould, therefore, quickly see how wonderfully such a project worked.

I see they've learned little.

But support for Ukraine now is support for a democratically-run country that already exists. This to me seems more credible than creating a democracy that no one asked for out of thin air.

Letting it die at the hands of an autocrat seems like a big blow to democracy, regardless of its track record of economic success over the years.

200 people in Russia control more wealth than the rest of the country combined. Sanctions on only those people would maybe potentially spare economic hardships for the rest of Russian people, while increasing pressure on Putin. He is still in control, but the types of sanctions that seize properties and bank accounts from those guys would at least have them questioning Putin's wisdom.

@jimm619 said
I thought that is what you said in the
particular post I quoted in my reply.
YOU SAID,
''..."Well, let me first be honest and tell you what I made of it all at the time: I was in favor of the Iraq War. I believed that a modern democracy in Iraq could be a new model of politics for the region,"
..........Did I misinterpret?

I was quoting Fareed Zakaria (hence the quote marks and the link to the article written by him).