12 May 09
Bud is to my chillum. The question is what kind of socialism. Marxism sucks. I am a Rainbow Gatherer and an anarcho- socialist of sorts. I can't ascribe to any type of socialism that denies people there inherent right to a spiritual relationship with their Creator. As a farmer I support the EZLN even though they lean towards Marxism, they haven't turned their back on our Mother. Also they make most of their decision making through consensus.
12 May 09
Originally posted by uzlessSpruce believes that Pinochet's Chile was an "economic miracle".
What markets? WHO would access them? Who has the money to access these markets?
The only way people in Gaza can get access to international markets is through foreigners giving these guys money.
In otherwords, modern socialism.
Unless you are a proponent of the IMF model of indebting countries up the ying-yang through "subsidies" and we've all seen how "successful" that has been for most 2nd and 3rd world countries.
12 May 09
Originally posted by spruce112358The Israelis aren't socialist. That's bull. The PA needs to dissolve, and be replaced with a socialist government.
Gaza is extremely relevant. Why are the Palestinians fighting? If they stop strugggling, the Israelis will give them enough food to live on, medicine, etc. That's socialism. It doesn't really matter which government you depend on.
Palestinians want more than that. They want to run their own affairs. They want choice.
Freedom of choice is what capitalism is all about.
12 May 09
Originally posted by scherzoIn your opinion, do you think the kibbutzim were sufficiently socialist in their heyday? Do you think that if the Israel had put more support into expanding the kibbutzim movement, things would have turned out better?
The Israelis aren't socialist. That's bull. The PA needs to dissolve, and be replaced with a socialist government.
13 May 09
Originally posted by rwingett"Israel" and "better" are like the two north sides of a magnet.
In your opinion, do you think the kibbutzim were sufficiently socialist in their heyday? Do you think that if the Israel had put more support into expanding the kibbutzim movement, things would have turned out better?
Tchah!
Anyway, back to real socialism ...
13 May 09
Originally posted by rwingettThat's also true to some degree (not entirely; everyone has exactly 24 hours each day to spend -- a very socialist concept, time), but not what I was talking about.
If you own nothing, are you allowed to do nothing? Conversely, if you own much, are you allowed to do much? Does your freedom of action depend on your level of wealth? The more wealth you have, the greater freedom you have access to?
If you want to do or make something someone else wants to buy, or buy something someone else wants to sell -- one should generally be allowed to do so freely.
One should not have to ask a government (or pay them) for permission to make that choice.
13 May 09
Originally posted by uzlessThat's my point. Gaza has been forced into socialism - no market access, and the only way they can survive is on handouts.
What markets? WHO would access them? Who has the money to access these markets?
The only way people in Gaza can get access to international markets is through foreigners giving these guys money.
In otherwords, modern socialism.
Unless you are a proponent of the IMF model of indebting countries up the ying-yang through "subsidies" and we've all seen how "successful" that has been for most 2nd and 3rd world countries.
Gaza does have vegetables to sell -- but in a famous incident some years back they rotted on the docks because they were not allowed to proceed to a market. Gaza will have products one day, if they are allowed access to markets.
I don't know if the IMF is a great way to promote capitalism, but I suspect it is not.
13 May 09
Originally posted by spruce112358"Act as a socialist"? How does one "act" as a socialist in a capitalist society? The fact is that within a capitalist society I am forced to act as a capitalist. Without moving to another country, I am not at all free to choose the economic system I get to operate within. A truly free society would have equal access to a socialist sphere and to a capitalist sphere, with the freedom to move between them as one wished without having to change one's physical location. Freedom must include the freedom to reject capitalism.
You can choose to act as a socialist if you wish. You just can't force others to make the same choices you are making.
13 May 09
Originally posted by rwingettSurely that would have an obvious problem:
A truly free society would have equal access to a socialist sphere and to a capitalist sphere, with the freedom to move between them as one wished without having to change one's physical location. Freedom must include the freedom to reject capitalism.
Poor people are better off in a socialist society, rich people are better off in a capitalist society, but both societies depend on the existence of (unwilling) members of the opposite class.
13 May 09
Originally posted by twhiteheadCapitalists may desire many poor people to provide a pool of cheap labor, but capitalism does not depend on there being poor people. I fail to see how socialism has anything to do with rich people, let alone "depend" on their existence.
Surely that would have an obvious problem:
Poor people are better off in a socialist society, rich people are better off in a capitalist society, but both societies depend on the existence of (unwilling) members of the opposite class.
13 May 09
Originally posted by rwingettI don't know and I'm the wrong person to ask -- I assumed you guys had a secret handshake or a decoder ring or something...😉
"Act as a socialist"? How does one "act" as a socialist in a capitalist society?
But seriously, capitalism is about you directing your own affairs -- however modest. Socialism is about directing other's affairs. So if you feel like you can't "be" a True Socialist in a capitalist society because you need to direct others, well it's true that that is unlikely to go over very well. You will need one helluva marketing campaign since capitalism is fundamentally about being self-directing.
13 May 09
Originally posted by spruce112358...as far as reasonably prosperous people in developed countries are concerned, you mean.
...capitalism is fundamentally about being self-directing.
Why do you always provide only half the picture? 🙂
It's your one helluva test-tube tested marketing campaign, I suppose.