No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
1 CORINTHIANS 10:13
I saw this in RBHILL's post "Bible Study Victory":
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=18869
This is a good Biblical passage which I think shows why people think the Bible is the word of God. The author has some wisdom; he knows that all people get tempted to do things that they know aren't good for them. People read this and see that the author has wisdom, so they trust him in the other things he says. The author makes the reader feel good by reminding him that all people get tempted; It's "I'm ok, you're ok" sort of language.
The author then brings in out of nowhere God, and claims God is on the reader's side in this struggle. The reader feels comforted that there's this superpowerful being that they can trust who is on their side. Now, critically, why should we believe there's a God, and that God has this faithful quality? I immediately want to ask the author to support his claims; both the implicit claim that there's a God, and the explicit claim that God is faithful.
The author says that God will "not let [the reader] be tempted beyond what [he] can bear" and that God will "provide a way out". This is again comforting, and in addition to being comforting, it encourages the reader to develop a strong will and keep his mind on his well-being. This shows more wisdom. In addition, if the reader follows the Bible's advice, his life will start to come together. This is not because of God, but because of the non-God related wisdom in the Bible. The author makes an unsupported claim that God is involved in all this. However it's simply basic good advice with God thrown in for no reason whatsoever. Because the reader senses the wisdom, he trusts the author about God too.
The author also sneaks in in an implicit form (or maybe it was explicitly mentioned earlier in the Bible) what the author feels is best for the reader. Now whether or not the author is right about this is beyond the scope of this analysis, but I bet that like this passage, the Bible's ideas of what are best for people are a combination of wisdom and comforting language with the author's personal biases and arbritrary references to God thrown in.
My claim is that God is totally unnecessary to the wisdom in the Bible. I claim that the wisdom came from people of insight who had an uncritical and superstitious belief in a God that probably does not and did not exist the way they believed him to be. Whether or not there's a God cannot be known, and the characteristics of this God are totally unknowable. Even likelihoods of what God is like are not knowable.
People just make claims in the Bible about God and readers trust those claims because they are in close proximity to a very human sort of wisdom. It's a psychological trick (probably not intentional) that is used to convince uncritical readers of a claim that has no support whatsoever.
Anyone want to debate my claim?
Originally posted by AThousandYoung
[b]No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
1 CORINTHIANS 10:13
I saw this in RBHILL's post "Bible Study Victory":
[i]http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/ ...[text shortened]... uncritical readers of a claim that has no support whatsoever.
Anyone want to debate my claim?[/b]
What is comforting and makes you feel good when it is said: "Take up your cross and follow me" ?
Originally posted by ivanhoeAnd he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me.
What is comforting and makes you feel good when it is said: "Take up your cross and follow me" ?
MATTHEW 10:38
This seems to be claiming that if the reader does not follow the Bible he is 'unworthy'. Instead of wooing the reader with wisdom to follow the Bible, it puts down those who do not follow it. It's basic peer pressure - 'you don't want to be unworthy, do you?' It also allows those who follow the Bible to feel superior to others, as the followers are 'worthy' while others are 'unworthy'.
I'll amend my earlier statement to say that the Bible makes outrageous claims and uses a number of psychological tricks to manipulate the reader into uncritically believing these claims. It seems the Bible uses a variety of approaches to do so. This manipulation may not have been intented by the authors, but this is the net effect it has and is why people believe these unsupported claims.
Originally posted by AThousandYoung
[b]And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me.
MATTHEW 10:38
This seems to be claiming that if the reader does not follow the Bible he is 'unworthy'. Instead of wooing the reader with wisdom to follow the Bible, it puts down those who do not follow it. It's basic peer pressure - 'you don't want to be un ...[text shortened]... e authors, but this is the net effect it has and is why people believe these unsupported claims.[/b]
Why is taking up your cross comforting ? Because you can feel superior ?
Originally posted by ivanhoeI do not claim that taking up a cross is comforting.
Why is taking up your cross comforting ? Because you can feel superior ?
In this passage different psychological techniques are used than in the first quoted passage to get the reader to accept the unsupported claims in the Bible.
Originally posted by AThousandYoungATY: "I do not claim that taking up a cross is comforting."
I do not claim that taking up a cross is comforting.
In this passage different psychological techniques are used than in the first quoted passage to get the reader to accept the unsupported claims in the Bible.
What is it then ?
I agree with you that the Bible holds some wisdom and then perverts it by useing it to lure people into false ideas about God. However, this passage does nothing of the sort; in fact, it is a contradiction. Here it is a again so no one has to scroll up to read it:
No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
1 CORINTHIANS 10:13
First, we are not tempted beyond what we can bear. That passage more than suggests that we need no help with the temptation. However, the passage then goes on to say that God will provide "a way out so that you can stand up under it." You have to notice that the passage is not saying the God takes away the temptation, but provides needed help. Help that you don't need, because the temptation is no more than you can bear.
In plain terms: God offers needed help where no help is needed. This is such a contradiction.
... --- ...
Originally posted by ivanhoeMatthew 10:38 offers the reader two choices; to "take up the cross and follow after Jesus" or to be "unworthy" of Jesus Christ. It's a sort of threat; nobody wants to be unworthy!
Is it wisdom ? Is it necessary in some way ? Is it a psychological technique and what is it supposed to do with the believer ?
What it means to "take up the cross" is unclear, but I think it means to wear a cross as a symbol of Christianity and to be a Christian.
There is no wisdom here. Is the passage necessary? Necessary for what? It is a means of pressuring people to be Christians. What is it "supposed" to do with the believer? Well it's probably "supposed" to inform the reader, believer or not. Answering that question involves speculation as to the motive of the author, and if it's an actual quote, to the motive of Jesus.
I am not looking at the motives of the author or of Jesus. I'm not looking at what the Bible is "supposed" to be telling the reader. I'm looking at what the actual effect of the words are on people, and how the Bible gets people to believe in God.
It's interesting that this passage seems to suggest that trying to convince people to be Christians is not a proper thing to do, as non Christians are unworthy of Jesus. Why convert those who are unworthy of conversion? The answer isn't that everyone is unworthy, as Jesus singled out those who don't take up the cross and follow after him as unworthy. The implication is that those who take up the cross are worthy.
Originally posted by thesonofsaulInteresting observation! That does seem to be a contradiction. However there is wisdom there, in that it observes that all people are tempted; it tells the reader this, knowing that this will lift the readers' spirits and give them the will to struggle against temptation; and it attempts to strengthen that will.
I agree with you that the Bible holds some wisdom and then perverts it by useing it to lure people into false ideas about God. However, this passage does nothing of the sort; in fact, it is a contradiction. Here it is a again so no ...[text shortened]... no help is needed. This is such a contradiction.
... --- ...
Temptation will not be more than I can bear, because God will stengthen and/or deliver me. To the extent that I trust in God, I can stand up under what temptation I face, knowing He leads me. This verse helps remove from Christians any excuse for sin based on the idea that temptation is too much for us. Not long ago a co-worker of mine (a nominal Christian) exploded in anger against me over a rather trivial disagreement. In the course of time, he realized I was in the right and apologized to me. But there was a hollowness to his apology, not least because he tried to justify his verbal abuse with an excuse based on the load of stress he claimed to have been under at the time. That is, his temptation to rage was too great for him to bear. Now, he should understand that strong temptation is no excuse for a Christian. After all, stress is a temptation "common to man." We claim faith (ie, trust) in God, and that should include trust in His empowering of His people to face evil, and His deliverance of them from evil, even the evil in our own hearts. With that trust, we can stand up under what temptations we encounter. We can; whether we do is up to us.
This is the best I have just shooting from the hip. I have a feeling this verse is an awkward one to translate. Greek grammar, and especially syntax is very different from English. If I were to consult some linguistic tools or commentaries on the text, I might be able to make a better job of it.
Originally posted by thesonofsaulI'm not one to deny that the Bible has contradictions, but this passage
I agree with you that the Bible holds some wisdom and then perverts it by useing it to lure people into false ideas about God. However, this passage does nothing of the sort; in fact, it is a contradiction. Here it is a again so no ...[text shortened]... no help is needed. This is such a contradiction.
... --- ...
is not one of them; misunderstanding is a product of mistranslation.
The NAB for the same passage reads:
No trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will
not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will
also provide you a way out, so that you may be able to bear it.
I Corinthians 10:13
What it signifies is this:
1) A human will never be asked to bear a divine trial, a divine burden;
2) As such, a human will never be asked to bear a burden beyond
that which s/he can handle;
3) When it seems that a human is being asked to bear a burden beyond
what s/he can handle, all that human must do is call upon God to aid or
ease in that bearing.
Think of it this way: Before the invention of the wheel or pulley, humankind
was capable of moving huge stone bricks from one place to another, but it
was hard. These inventions aided in something, made it easier for
humankind to achieve success in their endeavor.
All St Paul is saying here is: You'll never have something that you can't
handle (for you are human and have only human concerns), but if you
call upon God, it will be that much easier to handle it.
The neat thing about this passage is that people need not agree on what
'God' is and what 'He' can do; for some, He is this 'Old Man in the Sky,
pulling strings (for some harder than others), for others He is more abstract.
For some He is karma, or Great Spirit, or a symbol for the conceptual
ideal.
I see no contradiction myself, in any event.
Nemesio
Matthew 10:38
The cross refers to hardships and suffering. At the time Jesus spoke these words, the cross was not yet a symbol for Christian faith. He had not yet been crucified! But His hearers would have been familiar with the image of men walking to their executions, bearing on their own backs the burden of a heavy cross. Bearing a cross does not, in our text, refer to mere profession of Christianity (much, much less to wearing any sort of jewelry). Jesus is speaking to those who already profess to follow him. He is saying that if they won't follow Him when the going gets rough, then they are not worthy of their profession. They ought not talk the talk, if they won't walk the walk.
This is what I see in the verse, but again I'm shooting from the hip (with two noisy toddlers doing their best to distract me). One advantage of my interpretation is that it considers context. But I might do better still with more research.
Originally posted by huntingbearI can accept that the cross refers to ones' burdens and difficulties.
Matthew 10:38
The cross refers to hardships and suffering. At the time Jesus spoke these words, the cross was not yet a symbol for Christian faith. He had not yet been crucified! But His hearers would have been familiar with the imag ...[text shortened]... considers context. But I might do better still with more research.
So it seems as though Jesus is saying that the reader has two choices; take up your burdens and difficulties and follow him, or be unworthy.
If one chooses to be unworthy, one can do it in two ways; by not taking up one's burdens and difficulties, or by not following Jesus. So to be 'worthy' in Jesus' eyes, one must follow him.
The second choice is manipulative and in itself gives no reason why one should follow Jesus. Why should I care if Jesus thinks I am unworthy of him, if it requires me being his follower?
There is no obvious interpretation of the 'taking up the cross' part.
If this passage is simply a record of what Jesus told a certain group of people, I think many people are mislead, thinking Jesus is talking directly to the reader. Who is Jesus addressing this statement to? Is it only intended for his disciples or does he refer to everyone? Context would be helpful here.