08 Jan 05
Originally posted by caissad4And what Grimm's Fairy Tale book did you regurgitate this theory from? 🙄
Sorry blind, the myth of "noah" is a story stolen by the Hebrews from the Mesopatomians.
It was originally the story of 4 Gods who decide to end life on this planet. A 5th God comes down and tells Ut-napishtim to build a boat in order to be saved. The flood (in the older story) lasted 7 days and nights.
Why do you want to cling to this Pagan myth?
In Love there is Life
Angela
08 Jan 05
2 edits
Originally posted by chancremechanicSounds a little like the Gilgamesh Epic--a text of greater antiquity than the oldest Hebrew texts.
And what Grimm's Fairy Tale book did you regurgitate this theory from? 🙄
Incidently, flood stories are nearly universal in the world's mythologies, but many of these are local floods, something supported by scientific evidence. One of the largest well-documented floods swept through my area repeatedly some 10,000 years ago. Geologists have documented some 89 separate floods over this area. These floods created the geography of the Channeled Scablands (just google it if you need more info--the story of Bretz is instructive). Local Indian legends include a number of stories that are astoundingly consistent with the current state of geological knowledge.
08 Jan 05
Originally posted by telerionYes, but calling it a myth does not invalidate it. The problem stems from how the myth gets interpreted. Too many who read the Bible literally interpret its myths in such a way as to cast doubt regarding its truths in the minds of everyone with a decent grounding in science. We need to study these myths in light of similar myths and all available historic and scientific evidence. When we do so, we will be able to perceive the truths expressed in the record of a people's memories of catastrophic floods, and how they made sense of the tragic loss of life.
True. He/She can't prove it didn't happen, nevertheless if he/she has obtained even the meanest of education, he/she should be able to provide enough argumentation to convince all but the least obtuse of us that the Great Flood story is a myth.
08 Jan 05
Originally posted by WulebgrJoseph Campbell has written exstensively about what you have said.
Yes, but calling it a myth does not invalidate it. The problem stems from how the myth gets interpreted. Too many who read the Bible literally interpret its myths in such a way as to cast doubt regarding its truths in the minds of everyone with a decent grounding in science. We need to study these myths in light of similar myths and all available historic an ...[text shortened]... a people's memories of catastrophic floods, and how they made sense of the tragic loss of life.
08 Jan 05
1 edit
Originally posted by pcaspianOf course. Portions of the Pentateuch--the five books attributed to Moses--appear to have come into being ~1000 B.C.E., or perhaps a bit earlier. The Pentateuch as a whole was put together ~500 B.C.E.
Originally posted by Wulebgr
[b]Sounds a little like the Gilgamesh Epic--a text of greater antiquity than the oldest Hebrew texts.
Hi, do you mind substantiating that claim ?
thanks
pc
[/b]
The Epic of Gilgamesh as we know it, comes from stone tablets in the Akkadian language that were found in Nineveh among the ruins of the library of King Ashurbanipal. His reign was ~669-633 B.C.E. Portions of the epic exist on tablets that date back to ~2000 B.C.E.
Not only is the Epic of Gilgamesh more ancient than the biblical texts, it contains fewer ambiguities of authorship and tradition, perhaps because the Pentateuch is so eclectic, borrowing from the traditions of so many of the Hebrews' neighbors. There appears good reason to believe that the Epic of Gilgamesh as a text, or as an oral tradition, formed a major influence upon the story of Noah.
08 Jan 05
1 edit
Originally posted by kirksey957Almost all of Campbell's work is derived from the work of scholars whose names are unknown to most of us. Campbell was a synthesizer and popularizer, not one who produced new ideas and knowledge. I think I have Campbell's The Power of Myth around here someplace.
Joseph Campbell has written exstensively about what you have said.
I have had issues with Campbell, when I've tried to read his work or watch his videos. In his efforts to locate Jungian archetypes in the world's mythologies, he too quickly passes over the locally specific aspects of the myths. Often, those local aspects are the most interesting. The sort of "truth" I'm getting at here--where myth might corroborate geology, or vise versa--stems precisely from those local elements that Campbell neglects.
08 Jan 05
Originally posted by Wulebgr
Of course. Portions of the Pentateuch--the five books attributed to Moses--appear to have come into being ~1000 B.C.E., or perhaps a bit earlier. The Pentateuch as a whole was put together ~500 B.C.E.
The Epic of Gilgamesh as we know it, comes from stone tablets in the Akkadian language that were found in Nineveh among the ruins of the library of King Ashurbanipal. His reign was ~669-633 B.C.E. Portions of the epic exist on tablets that date back to ~2000 B.C.E.
You are dismissing the Oral tradition entirely ?
08 Jan 05
1 edit
Originally posted by pcaspianAbsolutely not:
Originally posted by Wulebgr
[b]Of course. Portions of the Pentateuch--the five books attributed to Moses--appear to have come into being ~1000 B.C.E., or perhaps a bit earlier. The Pentateuch as a whole was put together ~500 B.C.E ...[text shortened]... .
You are dismissing the Oral tradition entirely ?
[/b]
I wrote, "There appears good reason to believe that the Epic of Gilgamesh as a text, or as an oral tradition, formed a major influence upon the story of Noah" [emphasis added].
08 Jan 05
Originally posted by Wulebgr
Absolutely not:
I wrote, "There appears good reason to believe that the Epic of Gilgamesh as a text, or as an oral tradition, formed a major influence upon the story of Noah" [emphasis added].
Appologies, poor reading on my part. However why do you believe the Gilgamesh myth influencing the Noah account and not vice versa ?
pc
08 Jan 05
Originally posted by pcaspianbecause it is older
Originally posted by Wulebgr
[b]Absolutely not:
I wrote, "There appears good reason to believe that the Epic of Gilgamesh as a text, or as an oral tradition, formed a major influence upon the story of Noah" [emphasis added].
Appologies, poor reading on my part. However why do you believe the Gilgamesh myth influencing the Noah account and not vice versa ?
pc[/b]
08 Jan 05
Originally posted by pcaspianmy belief is based on the evidence
Originally posted by Wulebgr
[b]because it is older
Why do you believe that to be true ?
pc[/b]
The extant texts of the Epic are much older than any comparable Hebrew source
The Hebrew texts also show lots of evidence of borrowing myths from their neighbors--the flood story is not the only example of this
Oral tradition is much more difficult to date
08 Jan 05
Originally posted by Wulebgr
my belief is based on the evidence
The extant texts of the Epic are much older than any comparable Hebrew source
The Hebrew texts also show lots of evidence of borrowing myths from their neighbors--the flood story is not the only example of this
Oral tradition is much more difficult to date
I don't understand. You claim the Oral Tradition difficult to date, yet make the conclusive statement that the tablets dated to 2,000 B.C pre-date any oral accounts of the flood ?
Abraham had been around before Noah's death. It leaves little to the imagination that the success of the Isrealites would not have had significant impacts on the religions and myths of other nations.
As for other examples of Hebrew text borrowing from other nations, specifically evidence of this one way borrowing into Hebrew ? I appreciate for instance the provision of dates regarding archeological findings, but I don't see how you can make such a claim, particularly as you would need to compare it to an undated Oral tradition.
regards
pc
08 Jan 05
Originally posted by pcaspianI did not claim the tablets are older than oral accounts. I claimed the Babylonian tablets are older than any written Hebrew texts. Both sets of texts are based on oral traditions. Of course the oral traditions are older than the texts.
I don't understand. You claim the Oral Tradition difficult to date, yet make the conclusive statement that the tablets dated to 2,000 B.C pre-date any oral accounts of the flood?[/b]
Your requests for more examples of Hebrew borrowing would take more time than I can give it today; perhaps another day.
If you have some extra-biblical evidence to support your claim that the Hebrew oral tradition is more ancient than Babylonian oral traditions, post it. So far your claims have been rooted in your understanding of the biblical texts, not in evidence for the antiquity of those texts.
It is common knowledge that many believers--Christian and Jew--consider Moses the author of the Torah, or what Christians call the Pentateuch; that is, the five books of Moses. It is generally understood among scholars of antiquity (and I am no more than a hobbyist in this regard) that there were at least four distinct authors/traditions--almost certainly oral traditions long before being reduced to texts--that became these five books.
You seem willing to accept that the story of Noah derived from an oral tradition, so perhaps you are not clinging too strongly to the myth of Moses' authorship. In any case, if you make a study of other oral traditions among peoples where that is still, or until very recently was, the primary mode of transmitting culture from generation to generation (and here I am something more than a hobbyist), you will quickly learn how easily oral traditions borrow from one another, most particularly when plagues, famines, and wars strike, with the accompanying socio-cultural disruption.