Originally posted by generalissimoYou are not only naive, but ignorant of history. The U.S. did not steal anything from Mexico, we bought the land in question for $15 million and assumed Mexico's war debt of some $3.5 million to U.S. citizens.
How am I being naive?
Just imagine if YOU were an Mexican immigrant in the US, legal , working hard, would you like the ''natives'' to accuse you of being a criminal, or accuse you of forcing americans to immigrate ''to escape the horrendous tax burden'' simply because of the way you look, or because of the place you're from?
Im not being ''pro-mexican'' but you were the ones who stole new mexico from the mexicans!
Originally posted by der schwarze Ritterthere is no need for the insults.
You are not only naive, but ignorant of history. The U.S. did not steal anything from Mexico, we bought the land in question for $15 million and assumed Mexico's war debt of some $3.5 million to U.S. citizens.
The point I was trying to make was that it is unfair to criticise immigrants simply because some of them are illegal or ''steal'' jobs, etc.
Im not asking for a history lesson.
Originally posted by generalissimoAlso, this is not about legal immigration, it's about illegal immigration. The best analogy goes something like this: Suppose you and your spouse and children go to a hotel and pay $150 a night for a room. You're enjoying your stay, taking advantage of the amenities you've paid for: air conditioning, HBO, the Spice Channel (for after hours when the kids are in bed), the mini-bar, free continental breakfast, on-site gym, hi-speed Internet connection and the swimming pool. Say you and your wife go out for a swim in the pool, leaving the kids in the room to watch High School Musical 16. When you finish, you open the door and see six illegal aliens who are busy shining your shoes, washing and ironing your clothes, preparing food for dinner (mostly rice, beans and plantains) and cleaning the room. They tell you a sad tale of the poor conditions in the village where they came from and how they didn't have money for the hotel, so they climbed over the fence and your kids let them in. They offer to continue working, but you tell them they have to pay for their own room because that's the way it's done in America. They tell you they will work hard and want to bring their family over. What would you do in this crazy situation? Better still, what should the hotel manager do?
How am I being naive?
Just imagine if YOU were an Mexican immigrant in the US, legal , working hard, would you like the ''natives'' to accuse you of being a criminal, or accuse you of forcing americans to immigrate ''to escape the horrendous tax burden'' simply because of the way you look, or because of the place you're from?
Im not being ''pro-mexican'' but you were the ones who stole new mexico from the mexicans!
Originally posted by generalissimoThere is nothing wrong with being ignorant, you can correct that. It's the stupidity that will get you every time.
there is no need for the insults.
The point I was trying to make was that it is unfair to criticise immigrants simply because some of them are illegal or ''steal'' jobs, etc.
Im not asking for a history lesson.
Originally posted by der schwarze RitterSorry,I thought you were talking about immigrants in general...
Also, this is not about legal immigration, it's about illegal immigration. The best analogy goes something like this: Suppose you and your spouse and children go to a hotel and pay $150 a night for a room. You're enjoying your stay, taking advantage of the amenities you've paid for: air conditioning, HBO, the Spice Channel (for after hours when t ...[text shortened]... What would you do in this crazy situation? Better still, what should the hotel manager do?
Originally posted by generalissimoLegal immigration is a great thing -- legal immigrants bring their ideas and capital to add value to existing businesses, as well as starting their own businesses. Illegal immigration, on the scale that it has been practiced in Europe and the United States, has been disastrous. Basically, all you're doing is importing poverty as well as putting onerous levels of taxation upon the native populations to subsidize global poverty outreach.
Sorry,I thought you were talking about immigrants in general...
Just a moment. Did you read DSR's post? He said that certain races were associated with crime.
He wasn't just talking about illegal immigrants; he was making a broad-stroked normative claim.
That claim is bunk; race is not closely correlated with crime, socio-economic background is. A
poor white guy, a poor latino guy, and a poor black guy are all statistically equally likely to commit
crimes (as are a wealthy white, wealthy latino, and wealthy black guy).
Originally posted by SMSBear716
We are talking about illegal immigrants here.... what rights do you think they have in this country? Lay them out for me, please. Show me the common sense and pragmatism I mentioned in another thread.
So getting to your criticism about my supposed support of illegal immigrants. I think all humans
are endowed with inalienable rights for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This should
sound a bit familiar to you.
I do not support open borders. I think illegal immigrants should be returned to their homes
in their respective countries.
But here's the key: I think businesses who employ illegal immigrants should be punished severely.
The reason that illegal immigrants seek to come here is because there are employers willing to
employ them. It's a simple supply-demand relationship; people will stop illegally immigrating
here if there are no job opportunities for them. If lawmakers would punish businesses who hire
illegal immigrants in a crippling fashion, you better believe that the job market would dry up,
and so, too, would the number of people trying to immigrate here.
But Republicans (the ones who claim to be hard on immigration) have no such proposals (neither
do Democrats, of course). Why? Because such laws would undermine a serious financial portion
of their base.
Here's the part that I don't get about people who defend illegal immigrants in this country..or illegal immigrants in any country, by their sheer prescence and drain on the social services and government's ability to assist as well as charities etcetc. , illegal immigrants take away from legal immigrants and natural born citizens, they take away jobs, they take away support services and they cause wages to drop. So whats so hard to understand?
Actually, you have a totally misguided model about the economics of illegal immigrant workers.
You, as most people do, forget the most important part of the equation: Illegal immigrants take
away jobs from citizens at the rates that employers are willing to pay. Illegal immigrants
invariably have laborer jobs often requiring no training and little skill. They are not taking
away anything that would pay above minimum wage (although they aren't even making that).
If anything, they are keeping the prices on things lower. Why do you think that
so-called American companies outsource? Because they can pay a pittance. Why do you think
that all customer service calls are handled in India nowadays? Because those guys make like
two dollars an hour? Why do you think that 'The Gap' has children sewing their clothes together
in sweat shops? It's cheaper. A restaurant hires Paco the Mexican to wash dishes because it
can pay him fifty dollars a day. Walmart hires Franco the Mexican to pack out merchandise
because it can pay him seventy-five dollars for a twelve-hour shift. The average citizen will
look for Mexicans to pour a new concrete sidewalk for five hundred dollars plus materials instead
of paying twenty-five hundred dollars to get an American company to do it. If you refused to
eat, shop, or associate with companies who didn't use illegal immigrants at some point in their
employment scheme, you'd be hungry, naked, and have no stuff in your home except what you
made yourself.
Again, the solution is simple: Penalize businesses who hire illegal immigrants with huge, crippling
fines. Instead of spending on more and more border security, and walls and fences that haven't
a chance of working, employ inspectors and 'sting operations' for businesses and companies.
Start with border towns in the South, hit up New York City and San Francisco and other
well-known havens for illegal immigrants, and you watch: the whole scene will dry up. You
could have an unmanned border because they won't be coming looking for work.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioMore verbal semantics. Actually, I did not make such a claim -- you did! What I said was that certain ethnic groups "...tend to engage in (activities) that are harmful to the well being of individuals, cities, counties, states and the nation..." For instance, it's painfully obvious that people of Central and Latin American descent are hopping the border in huge, unmanageable numbers. Try as you might, you can not manipulate the fact that there are some 20+ million illegals in the United States, the overwhelming majority of which are from Mexico and other parts of Central American. And while we're at it, how come only Mexicans get to enter the country ahead of the queue? Why don't we let 80 million Chinese, or Indonesians, or Egyptians into the country; maybe they would assimilate better rather than asking America to assimilate?
Just a moment. Did you read DSR's post? He said that certain race[b]s were associated with crime.
He wasn't just talking about illegal immigrants; he was making a broad-stroked normative claim.
That claim is bunk; race is not closely correlated with crime, socio-economic background is. A
poor white guy, a poor latino guy, and a poor black guy a ...[text shortened]... likely to commit
crimes (as are a wealthy white, wealthy latino, and wealthy black guy).[/b]
Originally posted by NemesioI'm not going to respond your entire diatribe because its so full of holes to be less then pragmatic. I'll just say this, I buy only clothing made by Americans in this country.
Just a moment. Did you read DSR's post? He said that certain race[b]s were associated with crime.
He wasn't just talking about illegal immigrants; he was making a broad-stroked normative claim.
That claim is bunk; race is not closely correlated with crime, socio-economic background is. A
poor white guy, a poor latino guy, and a poor black guy a ...[text shortened]... i]unmanned border because they won't be coming looking for work.
Nemesio[/b]
This can't be you say? There is no such place to buy such clothes. Point your lil browser at the InterWeb and do a search. You'll find more than a few places that only sell clothes made in this country by Americans. Do they cost more? Why of course. Are they better made and last longer, you betcha!
By the way, I don't disagree with you about penalizing businesses that hire illegals, its happening now. Just ask Swift Meat that got hit with a multimillion dollar fine. We need more of it! Arizona, Missouri, Rhode Island and other staes are cracking down on illegals.
Finally, you totally ignored my and DSR's message that illegals are sapping taxes and resources away from legal immigrants and American citizens. When illegals turn up at Parkland Hospital in Dallas for medical care, there aren't turned away. Who do you think pays for that because they can't? Hint, its not the government of Mexico .... although there have been suggestions that the bills be sent there for collection.
You claim to be a pragmatist and someone with common sense who wants to work in a constructive manner to do whats best for the country ..... I haven't seen any proof of that yet. Especially when you call others morons when they contradict your liberal stance
Originally posted by generalissimoi dunno ... mexico has that, too:
How am I being naive?
Just imagine if YOU were an Mexican immigrant in the US, legal , working hard, would you like the ''natives'' to accuse you of being a criminal, or accuse you of forcing americans to immigrate ''to escape the horrendous tax burden'' simply because of the way you look, or because of the place you're from?
Im not being ''pro-mexican'' but you were the ones who stole new mexico from the mexicans!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Mexico
Article 27
The property of all land and water within national territory is originally owned by the Nation, who has the right to transfer this ownership to particulars. Hence, private property is a privilege created by the Nation.
Expropriations may only be made when there is a public utility cause.
The State will always have the right to impose on private property the constrainst dictated by "public interest". The State will also regulate the exploitation of natural resources based on social benefits and the equal distribution of wealth. The state is also responsible for conservation and ecological considerations.
...
Foreign citizens cannot own land within 100 km of the borders or 50 km of the sea, that an area of land next to the coast is federal property which cannot be sold to particulars.
Originally posted by SMSBear716
I'm not going to respond your entire diatribe because its so full of holes to be less then pragmatic. I'll just say this, I buy only clothing made by Americans in this country.
Of course, you pick the most insignificant of my points and prove it by a claim I can't prove
or disprove -- your buying habits. You totally ignore my statements on closed borders and
sending illegal immigrants home. Somehow, you associate penalizing businesses with 'liberal,'
because that's the only you comment on (but you agree with it, it seems). So what's liberal
about my stance?
Anyway, your buying habits may be true, but that doesn't change the fact that cheap labor
keeps prices low which is good for the economy. Just because you (and I) have principals doesn't
mean that other people do. The fact is, they don't -- they buy the cheapest stuff available,
even if it's made with blood money.
So, point out where the so-called holes are in my claims instead of blithely rejecting it (even
as you completely misinterpret it).
Finally, you totally ignored my and DSR's message that illegals are sapping taxes and resources away from legal immigrants and American citizens. When illegals turn up at Parkland Hospital in Dallas for medical care, there aren't turned away. Who do you think pays for that because they can't? Hint, its not the government of Mexico .... although there have been suggestions that the bills be sent there for collection.
You're absolutely right, and it's provable. Why does it need comment? Yes, illegal immigrants
are sapping resources. They aren't rejected at hospitals. But, of course, the expense of
hospitals working on poor citizens without health care is far, far greater than the bills
accrued from non-citizens. My father-in-law is chief surgeon at a hospital in Brooklyn, and
he informs me that (as I said) the issue is far more closely tied to poverty than citizenship.
(Now, don't infer that I'm in favor of Universal Health Care. It's one of the few issues that I
remain 'undecided' because there are compelling arguments on both sides.) Now, it should
come as no surprise to you that there are no shortage of illegal immigrants in Brooklyn. However,
the vast majority of unpaid bills are ones made to citizens. So, your concern that illegal immigrants
are driving up health care is only fractionally true. Yes, they are, but to a far smaller degree
than actual citizens are.
Furthermore, roughly 1/2 of illegal immigrants have payroll taxes deducted from their checks.
Of course, they do this under an alias, but the government ends up with the money anyway,
because illegal immigrants are far less likely to file for their money back as a result of their
low income specifically as not to draw attention to themselves. With even the most adventurous
of figures (20 million), that works out to be about 10 million illegal immigrants not paying taxes.
Interestingly, over 120 million Americans are outside the federal tax system. Now many of
these are children, non-working spouses and other dependents, and a good 14 million are those
who earn too little to actually owe anything. However 44 million working individuals -- that's
right, 33% of all tax filers -- get every penny back. Why is this? I'll give you a hint: under
Clinton that number was 25%. If you are so concerned with services, taxes and fiscal
responsibility, why would you endorse a President who was responsible for increasing spending
and the size of government, and decreasing the amount of money being poured into that
same system?
Anyway, given that illegal immigrants are probably on the lowest income brackets, the amount
of their contribution is, no doubt, very, very small.
To be clear: All workers should pay taxes. Illegal immigrants should not be allowed to work,
and the few that slip through the cracks should pay taxes. This is my unwavering stance. What's
liberal about that?
You claim to be a pragmatist and someone with common sense who wants to work in a constructive manner to do whats best for the country ..... I haven't seen any proof of that yet. Especially when you call others morons when they contradict your liberal stance
Actually, you claimed I was a pragmatist, but I think that's probably true. How is my stance
'liberal' though? I'm against illegal immigration. I'm against amnesty. I'm against giving
businesses slaps on the wrist. I'm for deportation. And, inasmuch as we stand a chance of
getting any money from Mexico, I'm in favor of sending them bills or economic sanctions or
whatever. I'd be interested to hear what precisely makes my stance liberal.
I'm also against blanket claims that particular races have maledictory inclinations. Such
claims are indeed moronic. I'm surprised you didn't yell at DSR yourself, since he made such
a statistically unsupported claim. Poverty, not race, drives illegal immigration. If Mexico
was reasonably wealthy and Canada was poor, you better believe they'd be talking about
building a wall across the largest unprotected border in the world.
The difference between me and so-called conservatives (they're not, actually) is that their
solution -- more walls and border guards -- is both expensive and inefficient. While there
jobs available here, illegal immigrants will strive to come here. They're risking their lives for
work that pays a pittance, after all. If that work dries up, they will stop coming, period. And
the way to stop that work is stiff penalties for the employers who offer that work.
So, you tell me what's 'liberal' about this. Either that, or admit that you were totally wrong
about that claim (since I've been unwavering on my stance on that issue for over a year).
Man up, now.
Nemesio