I think that perhaps the lessons on how to perfect our lives are getting a little too preachy for the more pragmatic amongst us. I don't believe that ceasing to eat animal products, or meditating, would vastly benefit the world, but by the same token, I think that if everyone were perhaps a little more introspective, it could certainly do more good. It may help eliminate crimes of passion for example. I don't agree with the principles of mass agriculture and try to eat organic when I can, but I still eat meat. That doesn't make me a bad person. Anyone who tries to tell me that it does is being reactionary and knee-jerk. Someyimes I find the tone of some of these post very patronising. Except for pradtf, who writes very politely, and argues his points well. I don't agree with him on many issues, but the right to debate is eternal. I do object to people who tell me where I could live my life better. I am an intelligent, educated and reasonable person, and make my own choices about my life. bbig, I don't think th epeople who are replying to your posts are intending to be rude, I just think that they are of a more pragmatic bent, and take exception to the implication that they are not 'enlightened' in the way you are. The responses you have received are poking fun at the overly serious and preachy nature of your post, but I think that they are a little out of line, maybe they don't see quite how serious an issue this is for you. Perhaps if you backed up your statements with some facts then people could have a debate, but this is impossible the way that you presented your case. I would be willing to enter into debate with you, but not until you actually come up with some form of lucid and cogent argument. I hope this wasn't so long winded that nooone will bother reading it all!
Awaiting your response.
Gary
Originally posted by Black LungYes, thee are many things that can be done but in order to run we first have to learn to walk right?
What if i stop eating animal products and start meditating on how much i want to eat humans?? Would this make the world better??
This obviously won't, which means that there are more than two things that you need to do...in't it geezer??
Those two steps can really help.
The choice is yours the only thing keeping you from eating humans right now is laws which protect and the stigma behind it.
I've lived in your world and frankly I don't see the results I wish to acheive.
Best of luck in your choices.
Big G.
Originally posted by garyminfordHi!
I think that perhaps the lessons on how to perfect our lives are getting a little too preachy for the more pragmatic amongst us. I don't believe that ceasing to eat animal products, or meditating, would vastly benefit the world, but by the same token, I think that if everyone were perhaps a little more introspective, it could certainly do more good. It ...[text shortened]... is wasn't so long winded that nooone will bother reading it all!
Awaiting your response.
Gary
Thank you for your post and of course there are many different threads.
Do you realize the consequenses of eating meat on the planet is?
If you where truelly educated you would not be feeding it into your mouth.
Big G.
Originally posted by biggWell that is certainly a well argued and constructive point. Thank you for your efforts. Perhaps it is because I am TRULY educated that I feel that you could not possibly know the effects of everyone stopping eating animal products. The very best you could achieve would be a hypothesis, hopelessly founded on unproveable assumptions. Since that is the basis for your argument so far, I would like to hear exactly what you believe would be the impact in the world, in terms of social, political, cultural, population, environmental and any other spectre of human existence affected by this claim. You have not backed up any claim thus far with anything like coherency. Please try harder.
Hi!
If you where truelly educated you would not be feeding it into your mouth.
Gary.
ps, pradtf, would you like to debat this subject?
Originally posted by garyminfordthank you gary for your kind words.
I I think that if everyone were perhaps a little more introspective, it could certainly do more good. It may help eliminate crimes of passion for example. I don't agree with the principles of mass agriculture and try to eat organic when I can Gary
it's great that you are pursuing organic because that is not only good for you, it is also good for those people who have chosen to grow things this way. we do the same too. it is more expensive (though not always), but the short and long term benefits have been undeniable. tastes lot better too 🙂
i think you are right about the introspection, but i was surprised to see that there is actually statistical evidence to validate it. i couldn't find the stuff in scientific american, but i did find what i was looking for on www.tm.org
it is really interesting and the studies done are apparently from objective sources:
Decreased Violent Fatalities (U.S. Social Indicators Research 22: 399418, 1990)
Improved Quality of Life (The Journal of Mind and Behavior 8: 67103, 1987)
Decreased Crime (Journal of Crime and Justice 4: 2545, 1981)
Reduced Conflict (Journal of Conflict Resolution 32: 776812, 1988)
(just follow some of the links on the left side and you can see these for yourself)
btw, i'm not a tmer because i got turned off when they wanted to charge $400 Cdn back in the early 80s so they could give me a mantra to chant that was customized to my needs. i have no doubt that meditation is a good thing, but i don't see why a mantra has to cost anything (no offense to any tmers who may be reading this)
in friendship,
prad
[Hi!
btw, i'm not a tmer because i got turned off when they wanted to charge $400 Cdn back in the early 80s so they could give me a mantra to chant that was customized to my needs. i have no doubt that meditation is a good thing, but i don't see why a mantra has to cost anything (no offense to any tmers who may be reading this)
in friendship,
prad[/b]
Yes, the fees are insane and this is the challange when man starts seeing a need and money becomes the motivator.
Big G.
Originally posted by garyminfordi will gary, a bit later on in the week. have to catch up on my chess and a few other things right now.
ps, pradtf, would you like to debat this subject?
i don't think bigg is trying to be preachy - he has just made some connections that have become obvious to him. i have gotten to know him and he really is a very nice fellow. we don't agree on everything, but we have resolved things well via email. sometimes that is easier to do than on the forums. he is just brief with his posts - i guess it makes up for my being rather long-winded 😀
you are right though when you request 'proof' for the hypothesis. i will try to provide this viably and hope you will participate in the discussion.
in friendship,
prad
Originally posted by garyminfordHi!
Well that is certainly a well argued and constructive point. Thank you for your efforts. Perhaps it is because I am TRULY educated that I feel that you could not possibly know the effects of everyone stopping eating animal products. The very best you could achieve would be a hypothesis, hopelessly founded on unproveable assumptions. Since that is the bas ...[text shortened]... ing like coherency. Please try harder.
Gary.
ps, pradtf, would you like to debat this subject?
Thank you for being you. I learn from everyone and you are a gentleman Gary.
I am not one to tell you how to live that is your choice nor would I want to take that freedom away from anyone.
Can we see how not eating meat and meditation would only bring benefit then?
I am a simple man so I tend not to waste to much energy.
However I do forget that I don't think the way many do.
So here is some brief info. If you would like more please let me know.
By the way have you ever heard of John Robbins (former heir to Baskin Robbins multi-million dollar company?)
Many people eliminate animal foods from their diet because of health concerns. According to Cornell University's Dr. T. Colin Campbell, director of the renowned "China Project" (a long-term study of the relationship between diet and health), "The vast majority, perhaps 80 percent to 90 percent, of all cancers, cardiovascular diseases, and other forms of degenerative illness can be prevented, at least until very old age, simply by adopting a plant-based diet."2 In study after study, the consumption of animal foods has been linked with heart disease, stroke, cancer, diabetes, arthritis, and other illnesses. One reason may be because animals are routinely given growth hormones, antibiotics, and even pesticides, which remain in their flesh and are passed on to meat-eaters.
Other people become vegetarians out of concern for animal welfare. On today's factory farms, animals often spend their entire lives confined to cages or stalls barely larger than their own bodies. Death for these animals doesn't always come quickly—or painlessly. House of Representatives Agriculture Committee member George E. Brown has written that to keep production lines moving, slaughterhouse employees "often find themselves resorting to unbelievable brutality. ... Slaughter workers admit to routinely strangling, beating, scalding, skinning and dismembering fully conscious animals."3 Every year, nearly 9 billion animals are killed for food in the United States alone.
Animals aren't the only victims in slaughterhouses. Workers commonly suffer from repetitive-stress disorders such as carpal tunnel syndrome, as well as injuries to their backs, necks, shoulders, and hands. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the meat industry has one of the worst records in terms of on-the-job injuries.4
Reducing health risks and eliminating animal suffering are just two reasons to go vegetarian; adopting a plant-based diet can also help protect the environment and feed the hungry.
Ecological Arguments
In 1996, U.S. factory farms produced 1.4 billion tons of animal waste—130 times more than humans did.5 The waste produced in a single year would fill 6.7 million train boxcars—enough to circle the Earth 12 1/2 times.6
Unfortunately, much of this waste ends up in our rivers and streams. According to the Environmental Protection Agency, factory farming pollutes U.S. waterways more than all industrial sources combined.7 The effects are often deadly. For example, runoff from animal waste is linked to a 7,000-square mile "dead zone" in the Gulf of Mexico that can no longer support aquatic life.8 And scientists suspect that runoff of manure from chicken and hog farms is one of the leading causes of the devastating pfiesteria outbreaks that have killed billions of fish from Delaware to Alabama. The pfiesteria microorganism causes its human victims to suffer from memory loss, skin lesions, and incapacitating fatigue.9
Raising animals for food is also taking its toll on the world's forests. Since 1960, more than one-quarter of the rain forests in Central America have been destroyed to create cattle pastures. Of the Amazonian rain forest cleared in South America, more than 38 percent has been used for ranching.10 Rain forests are vital to the survival of the planet because they are the Earth's primary source of oxygen. And scientists are increasingly exploring the use of rain-forest plants in medications to treat and cure human diseases.
Cattle grazing is endangering plant species in the United States, too. The Government Accounting Office says that livestock grazing has threatened or eliminated more plant species than any other single factor.11 And as much as 85 percent of rangeland in the Western part of the United States is being destroyed by overgrazing.12
Humanitarian Concerns
Every day, 840 million people around the world, including 200 million children, go hungry.13 But much of the world's grain harvest—40 percent—is used to feed livestock, not people.14 U.S. livestock alone consume about one-third of the world's total grain harvest, as well as more than 70 percent of the grain grown in the United States.15
Raising animals for food is much less efficient than growing vegetables, grain, or beans. For example, a cow grazing on one acre of land produces enough meat to sustain a person two and a half months; soybeans grown on that same acre would nourish a person for seven years.16 The beef in just one Big Mac represents enough wheat to make five loaves of bread.17
Many researchers believe that vegetarianism is the only way to feed a growing human population. A Population Reference Bureau report stated, "If everyone adopted a vegetarian diet and no food were wasted, current [food] production would theoretically feed 10 billion people, more than the projected population for the year 2050."18
Thank you bbig. I appreciate the entering into the spirit of debate. I have read your post and find it well argued and cogent. Being as it is a little after 3am when I am reading it, I will reply tomorrow. After some much needed 😴. This is what these threads should be about, lively debate and point and counterpoint. I will reply properly, as you rpost fully deserves, when I am less likelyt to take a nose dive onto my keyboard. oh, good, work in 5 hours 😕
Originally posted by biggSit on a Swiss mountain and drink carot juice 😀
Many people wonder what they could do to really benefit themselves and the world.
Sometimes people feel a little overwhelmed on where and what to do.
There are two things that you can do to dramitically change your life and the worlds.
1. Stop eating animal products.
2. Meditate.
Take these two simple steps and the ripple effect of a better world will be manifested.
Big G.
Hi there, thought I'd add my two pennys worth to this conversation.
bigg, in response to your last post, the first two points (health concerns and animal welfare concerns) can easily be remedied by eating only organic food. Organic food is, of course, produced without any of the growth hormones and so on that are believed to be at least the major cause of health problems associated with meat eating.
I do see the problems with everyone eating organic. It is quite impractical to feed the entire population on organic food, both in terms of cost and space. I don't really have an answer to this, other than to say that you probably couldn't convince everyone to eat organic anyway. It costs too much to make the change, and too many people value money over things like the welfare of animals. Changing that would require an enormous effort, a complete revamp of the populations beliefs. Tough one.
As far as the people going hungry is concerned, yes, eating meat does use up more resources than eating a plant based diet. However, food shortage is not the problem when it comes to starvation around the globe. It is politics and economics that are doing this. We already produce enough food to feed the world's population, but it doesn't get to where people need it because no-one wants to pay to take it there. Or charities do pay to take it there, and then the nation's ruler confiscates it and sells it so he can buy himself a bigger palace. Have a look here for more:
http://www.globalissues.org/EnvIssues/Population/Hunger.asp
...As far as the people going hungry is concerned, yes, eating meat does use up more resources than eating a plant based diet. However, food shortage is not the problem when it comes to starvation around the globe. It is politics and economics that are doing this. We already produce enough food to feed the world's population, but it doesn't get to where people need it because no-one wants to pay ...[text shortened]... ce. Have a look here for more:That is what I have been saying for a while now. We have the ability to adequately feed, clothe, house, and care for everyone on earth. The problem is that it can't be done at a profit. So we continue to have starving, homeless, and diseased people in huge segments of the earth's population. We have the resources available, but the profit motive will not allow for their distribution.
http://www.globalissues.org/EnvIssues/Population/Hunger.asp
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