16 Sep 03
Originally posted by chancremechanicunfortunately there are fools here who take exactly that line...that we have it coming because of our support for the US in the war on terror. but there is evidence Jemayaa Islamiah (the local al-Qaeda -linked bunch of loonies) were planning to attack Western interests in SE Asia even before September 11.
Tomferg1...I suppose Bali, Indonesia was overrated, too?...just a couple hundred Aussies dead, so what?...did you blokes have it coming too?...you're an @$$!!!
16 Sep 03
Originally posted by chancremechanicHmmm. We seem to agree on this one (SHOCK!). Check out my profile...thanks for the opinion 😀!
Tomferg1...I suppose Bali, Indonesia was overrated, too?...just a couple hundred Aussies dead, so what?...did you blokes have it coming too?...you're an @$$!!!
16 Sep 03
Originally posted by PhlabibitSomething has never quite sat correctly with me about this. I have a friend who is a fireman and another who has been training to become a fireman. They have given me a great deal of information about what sort of training they get, and more importantly, what sorts of resources are available to the firefighter before they arrive on the scene. One of those resources given to the firefighter, when they are told what their destination would be, is how the building is structured.
“ Innocent people in danger, and your firemen and police rush into save them and they end up dead also?
P-[/b]
Now bear with me for a second. When the planes hit the towers two years ago, I was comfortably asleep, as it was just past 6 in the morning, Pacific time. I generally don't wake up early, but my housemate at the time woke up at 6:15 every day for work. He turned on the news and saw what was happening. He pounded on my door to wake me up and I stumbled bleary-eyed into his room to see what the fuss was about. I walked in just in time to see the second plane hit.
The thing I remember the most about that part of the morning is hearing all the "experts" on TV giving no credence to the possibility that the buildings may be coming down. I could see on the screen that those were huge, black-smoke fuel fires, and, at the very least, the tops of the buildings were going to crumble off at some point.
And then I heard a structural engineering expert of some sort say the magic word: truss. I didn't know that the building's floors were all truss construction, but I knew at that second, from what my friends had told me, that the towers were coming down. Period. Truss construction is a firefighter's worst enemy. Light and strong for cheap construction, but guaranteed to completely fail once any part of it becomes unstable.
I sadly remarked on this to my housemate, and we were then positively stunned to see several cadres of police and firefighters enter the buildings! Unbelievable! Surely if I, some jackass on the other side of the country knew that the towers were going to collapse, then SURELY the trained personnel there must have known? Right? They HAD to know it was all a truss!
Needless to say, the towers came down. As the reports came in all day of all the firefighters, rescue workers, and police that died, I sat there and wondered why so many of them went ordered inside in the first place. Something that no one, on any news station, was talking about. Surely they knew how the building was constructed. Add to that, the incredible amount of jet fuel that was feeding both the fires and I still can't believe they were allowed by those in charge to go up in the buildings.
So my question is: was there, or is there, an investigation of the decision-makers ever done to answer this question? I have heard nothing of domestic inquiries as to how matters were handled at the time of the attack.
16 Sep 03
Originally posted by Poison GodmachineI think the answer in it's simplest form is "That's what firefighters do".
[b]Something has never quite sat correctly with me about this. I have a friend who is a fireman and another who has been training to become a fireman. <snip>
I doubt if there is such a thing as a "safe" burning structure. Yet, everyday, somewhere, firefighters will enter these unsafe places and try and save lives, knowing very well that they are placing themselves at great risk. They have protective clothing, breathing apparatus, and whatever else they can bring in with them, but they are still at risk, and they will still go forward if there's even the slightest chance they can save someone. I don't think they spend much time thinking about it or studying the chances of success. They just do it.
Maybe that's why we hold them in such high regard.
Just my thoughts on the subject...
Marc
17 Sep 03
Originally posted by mwmillerBut there are degrees of safety that firefighters work from, all depending on the structure of the building, the cause of the fire, the flammable material therein, the date of the last update to a sprinkler system, etc. Once it has been ascertained that entering a building will almost assuredly end in the death of the firefighter, the chief is duty-bound to disallow his force from entering a building. They are required to work from the outside, clearing doors, breaking windows, etc., in order to expedite the egress of those still trapped in a building.
I doubt if there is such a thing as a "safe" burning structure.
There is a difference between courage and foolhardiness, and, in my opinion, the line was crossed. The death toll actually increased as a result of poor decision-making and I have not heard of anyone being held accountable.
18 Sep 03
3 edits
Originally posted by Poison GodmachineI was on my way to work the day it happened. Just heard about a plane that struck the tower... they actually didn't realize it was a full size jet.
But there are degrees of safety that firefighters work from, all depending on the structure of the building, the cause of the fire, the flammable material therein, the date of the last update to a sprinkler system, etc. Once it ha ...[text shortened]... sion-making and I have not heard of anyone being held accountable.
Next was a report about the second plane. Before this they didn't even realize it was more then an accident.
With all the talk about truss construction I just hope they felt they had more time to escape. It's a tough call to run into any building... The most important thing for a fireman is to get out of a building... with any luck they can take a few people with them when they get out.
Phlabby-
Edit! The next post is very funny!