@they saidThe answer is really quite simple, if one distinguishes intrinsic goods from instrumental goods. Truth as such is an instrumental good, not an intrinsic one. Justice, however, is an intrinsic good. The reason witnesses are required to swear in court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is to render justice. Justice is the good, truth is merely a means to it. That this is so is obvious if the court finds out what really happened--that is, the court publishes the truth of the matter -- but renders no verdict or the wrong verdict. In this case, you have truth but no justice, which is a miscarriage.
One of the things I think about is the ethics of lying.
Almost all ethical thought experiments will have a range of situations to consider. In this case maybe the extremes of telling a lie about one's age or weight to the Nazis are at the door and you’ve got Anne Frank hiding in the attic.
Is lying part of your ethical code, part of the ethical code you are willing to imp ...[text shortened]... ence comes into play. I think it more a matter of personal ethics, which vary based on many factors.
But where the justice system itself has been corrupted by a vicious ideology (as in Nazi Germany for example), the only way to render justice (such as protecting a Jew you are hiding from persecution), is to lie to the police if they knock on your door.
@moonbus saidThat is an interesting and clear explanation, thanks.
The answer is really quite simple, if one distinguishes intrinsic goods from instrumental goods. Truth as such is an instrumental good, not an intrinsic one. Justice, however, is an intrinsic good. The reason witnesses are required to swear in court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is to render justice. Justice is the good, truth is merely a means ...[text shortened]... otecting a Jew you are hiding from persecution), is to lie to the police if they knock on your door.
@torunn saidI think the problem within this solution is that there are long term consequences as well as short term. If I can spare you from one pain by lying to you today, but I lose your trust, how many times will I be unable to offer you words of comfort in the future?
@HandyAndy
We all lie but for different reasons. If we can spare a person unnecessary worries by avoiding giving them the truth in a difficult situation, we would probably do so, if it didn't mean compromising consequences for somebody else. I think that would agree with good ethics.
Then it gets really confusing if you apply that to lying to yourself.
I like Moonbus's court analogy, but it is interesting how many people take an open and honest account into court only to be traumatised by the methods of inquiry thought to be a part of finding the truth, whilst others behave like FMF describes and enjoy the sense of power as they deceive society's best attempt at a justice system. Their capacity to do so often being a gratifying demonstration of their wealth, status and/or cunning.
@relentless-red saidDid you agree with what I said about online disinhibition and lying?
I like Moonbus's court analogy, but it is interesting how many people take an open and honest account into court only to be traumatised by the methods of inquiry thought to be a part of finding the truth, whilst others behave like FMF describes and enjoy the sense of power as they deceive society's best attempt at a justice system.
I did not say anything about "deceiving society's best attempt at a justice system" nor did I refer to anyone attempting to do any such thing.
@fmf saidI probably should have said that they were gaining the type of gratification to which you alluded whilst doing so in the context of the court room.
Did you agree with what I said about online disinhibition and lying?
I did not say anything about "deceiving society's best attempt at a justice system" nor did I refer to anyone attempting to do any such thing.
I wasn't really referring to the context of online posting (just to the type of gratification you described), but if asked I would say that many people certainly appear disinhibited when posting online, so if they had an urge or motivation to lie for gratification they would certainly do so very readily in that context. However, I still think there would be the issue of needing the motivation or urge rather than seeing it as an inevitable consequence of posting online.
As I type this I can already see a problem coming from the all or nothing dichotomy created by lie versus truth. Is the after dinner speaker who embellishes their anecdote to the delight of the audience lying? I would say no because their behaviour is within established social rules and thus expected. But online story telling is a new tradition so it's social rules are not yet evolved and established and on line communities seem to devote a lot of energy to thrashing them out. Is lying to enhance the entertainment value of your online posting an acceptable/ethical urge or motivation? If so, does that vary according to the nature of the thread or forum and would people recognise these things as agreed, to the same extent as accepting the behaviour of the after dinner speaker?
@relentless-red saidWell, it was clumsy of you to cite behaviour "like FMF describes" and then take it completely out of context.
I wasn't really referring to the context of online posting (just to the type of gratification you described), but if asked I would say that many people certainly appear disinhibited when posting online, so if they had an urge or motivation to lie for gratification they would certainly do so very readily in that context.
If you believe that people who tell tall stories about themselves because of online disinhibition would also "lie for gratification" in a court of law, then just say so clearly.
@relentless-red saidNo one has suggested that lying about oneself on a message board is "an inevitable consequence of posting online".
However, I still think there would be the issue of needing the motivation or urge rather than seeing it as an inevitable consequence of posting online.
And I don't think the motivation to engage in "lying about oneself on a message board" has anything to do with any motivation there might be to engage in lying in a courtroom where there is no anonymity and disinhibition brings with it costs.
You are in such a muddle, it's not clear what it IS you are trying to say.
25 Feb 21
Had my lie down now (yeah🤔), the platform here should develop to a video/face time🤷♂️. Such an issue, gosh, is miles of dialogue to keep up with. FMF & Red - get you both. No right or wrong, agree to disagree. Means to a personal end. Platitudes (said that in my club earlier as a pet hate), without a face deception, inception are all at a blank screen. And maybe not - Face Value🤔 my head hurts😒
@relentless-red saidIs lying to enhance the entertainment value of your online posting an acceptable/ethical urge or motivation? If so, does that vary according to the nature of the thread or forum and would people recognise these things as agreed, to the same extent as accepting the behaviour of the after dinner speaker?
Is lying to enhance the entertainment value of your online posting an acceptable/ethical urge or motivation? If so, does that vary according to the nature of the thread or forum and would people recognise these things as agreed, to the same extent as accepting the behaviour of the after dinner speaker?
I think telling lies about oneself on a message board is pathetic.
I think such a venue [as this] is best served if candour and the exchange of unvarnished truths and personal testimony are the main currency.
25 Feb 21
@moonbus said"Truth as such is an instrumental good, not an intrinsic one."
The answer is really quite simple, if one distinguishes intrinsic goods from instrumental goods. Truth as such is an instrumental good, not an intrinsic one. Justice, however, is an intrinsic good. The reason witnesses are required to swear in court to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is to render justice. Justice is the good, truth is merely a means ...[text shortened]... otecting a Jew you are hiding from persecution), is to lie to the police if they knock on your door.
Maybe (probably). But I think that is an idea worth considering.
What if truth was an intrinsic good? Science comes to mind, as well as philosophy and sociology. What if it was intrinsically good for everyone to always tell the truth?
Would the world be a different place? A better one?
An easier way to think about it is what if you were in a place (a city perhaps) where you knew with 100% certainty that everyone always told the truth. How would that change day to day living? Would it possibly be an improvement from what we have today?
@fmf saidYou'd take a dim view of somebody telling a story about their arms dropping off then?
Is lying to enhance the entertainment value of your online posting an acceptable/ethical urge or motivation? If so, does that vary according to the nature of the thread or forum and would people recognise these things as agreed, to the same extent as accepting the behaviour of the after dinner speaker?
I think telling lies about oneself on a message board is pathetic. ...[text shortened]... rved if candour and the exchange of unvarnished truths and personal testimony are the main currency.
@relentless-red saidOh dear.
You'd take a dim view of somebody telling a story about their arms dropping off then?
@relentless-red saidNo. Don't be so silly. Perhaps you can't tell the difference between jokes and people lying about themselves because they feel empowered or liberated by online disinhibition.
You'd take a dim view of somebody telling a story about their arms dropping off then?
25 Feb 21
@trev33 saidtrev,
Everything can change as people grow older, values, ethics, everything. Some are natural changes and come changes by choice, someone for example can realise certain things they don’t like about themselves and aim to change that. Some changes are harder than others.
In terms of lying, I’ve found it to be a very cultural thing and what some call lying others don’t. Often lies ...[text shortened]... w it’s very rare and small things that I don’t feel the need to tell the complete truth to a person.
You don't seem to have a problem telling how you feel! 😉 or if it will hurt my feelings if I had any either! 😉 😛
-VR