the Manson murders of the late 1960s

Originally posted by kevcvs57
...Human beings invest emotionally more in relation to how close they feel to any given victim, couple that with mind boggling numbers involved in the Vietnam war and you give us some idea of how upset we need to be in order to avoid the charge of being dehumanised.

You should be as upset as you feel is appropriate.

Originally posted by kevcvs57
Why do you think that we should be more upset about the death of a million people than one individual person, the million people are all individual 's but we cannot be a million more times upset, or can we?

"Why do you think that we should be more upset about the death of a million people than one individual person"? Because of our "common humanity", I'd say.

Originally posted by FMF
"Geographic based bias"? Vietnam is more or less as far away from me as Iraq is from you.

Not that far then.

Originally posted by kevcvs57
Not that far then.

Unless you are on the verge of making some sort of embarrassing generalization about "Asians", then I don't see what your comment about "Geographic based bias" could possibly mean in practical terms.

Originally posted by FMF
"Why do you think that we should be more upset about the death of a million people than one individual person"? Because of our "common humanity", I'd say.

Why would that relate to our common humanity, so you would be as grief stricken over my death as you would a family member or a well loved neighbour.

Perhaps if you explain to me at which point this common humanity thing out ranks the common human nature thing I will understand your position.

Originally posted by kevcvs57
Why would that relate to our common humanity, so you would be as grief stricken over my death as you would a family member or a well loved neighbour.

Charles Manson's victims were not members of your family or your well loved neighbour. It was just a news story. How many 'Charles Mansons' were involved in Operation Menu? They were American boys-next-door too, even if their victims weren't. I can understand people being distracted by a celebrity-pop culture-from hell murder for a year or two. But I find it odd that it's STILL newsworthy, STILL being sifted over 40 or more years later. Even now, when we have a pretty good picture of the scale of the slaughter that went on in 1970 right there, smack bang in the middle of the U.S. public domain. Reminds me of that poll done in 2000 - not very scientific, I'm sure - but it asked Brits in the street what the Most Momentous Event in the 20thC in Britain had been... and something like 25% said 'the death of Lady Di'.

Originally posted by FMF
Unless you are on the verge of making some sort of embarrassing generalization about "Asians", then I don't see what your comment about "Geographic based bias" could possibly mean in practical terms.

I will let that disgusting personal attack speak to the complete lack of a coherent argument on your part, coupled with your desperate need for victory in any thread you take part in.

The point is that because we share a common human nature as well as your more esoterical 'Humanity', people in Indonesia would be more emotionally involved in events in their own geographical neighbourhood. Have you got some evidence that this is not the case?

Originally posted by kevcvs57
I will let that disgusting personal attack speak to the complete lack of a coherent argument on your part, coupled with your desperate need for victory in any thread you take part in.

In fact, I refrained from making the "attack" as you will note. Should have stuck a smiley on it. Sorry. So what "Geographic based bias" were you imagining there could be with a country so far away from me? Frankly, you banging on about Indonesia seems every bit as irrelevant as sonhouse banging on about Armenia.

Originally posted by kevcvs57
...people in Indonesia would be more emotionally involved in events in their own geographical neighbourhood. Have you got some evidence that this is not the case?

Vietnam is thousands of kilometres away. It's not in Indonesia's "neighbourhood". I really don't know what you're on about with this "bias" thing.

Manson in America, 1970. America in Vietnam, 1970. People STILL sifting over the Manson case in 2013.

Originally posted by FMF
Charles Manson's victims were not members of your family or your well loved neighbour. It was just a news story. How many 'Charles Mansons' were involved in Operation Menu? They were American boys-next-door too, even if their victims weren't. I can understand people being distracted by a celebrity-pop culture-from hell murder for a year or two. But I find it odd ...[text shortened]... in the 20thC in Britain had been... and something like 25% said 'the death of Lady Di'.

"Charles Manson's victims were not members of your family or your well loved neighbour"

Remember when I used the term "extrapolate", and I shall remember you dodged another direct and salient question.

Well it is like this FMF , most of us brought into that "celebrity-pop culture" hook line and sinker just as the vast majority of us of that generation accepted the Hippie based anti Vietnam war message as one of hope for the future and a reason to reject the rationale that the previous generation spouted for not getting involved when a strong western govt bombed and burned a whole country just because it did not like the economic system that the majority of them seemed to be choosing.

The irony you seem to be missing is that the Tate murders were and are an inextricably linked aspect of the apparant demise of that believe in our ability to create a fairer and less brutal world.

Originally posted by FMF
Vietnam is thousands of kilometres away. It's not in Indonesia's "neighbourhood". I really don't know what you're on about with this "bias" thing.

Manson in America, 1970. America in Vietnam, 1970. People STILL sifting over the Manson case in 2013.

No of course you don't 😉

Originally posted by kevcvs57
No of course you don't 😉

I am not Indonesian. You do realize that don't you? I have lived in various places around the world and I am currently in Indonesia. The suggestion that I would have some "bias" towards a country 3,000 kilometres away because you reckon it's the same "neighbourhood" is plain silly. Maybe you are thinking there is some sort of ASEAN or post-colonial solidarity? Well, I am not from here. I am an ex-pat. Maybe that will clear it up?

Originally posted by kevcvs57
The irony you seem to be missing is that the Tate murders were and are an inextricably linked aspect of the apparant demise of that believe in our ability to create a fairer and less brutal world.

I don't think they were. I think they just distracted America from much worse things that were going on, much worse things that Americans were doing. Slaughter on an industrial scale that the U.S. has not been able to repeat since. Manson may have caused the demise of your belief in "our" ability to create a fairer and less brutal world, but you can speak for yourself, just as I have been.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't think they were. I think they just distracted America from much worse things that were going on, much worse things that Americans were doing. Slaughter on an industrial scale that the U.S. has not been able to repeat since. Manson may have caused the demise of your belief in "our" ability to create a fairer and less brutal world, but you can speak for yourself, just as I have been.

Aha, a crack here one which was obvious from a while ago, "Agree to disagree."

Originally posted by FMF
I don't think they were. I think they just distracted America from much worse things that were going on, much worse things that Americans were doing. Slaughter on an industrial scale that the U.S. has not been able to repeat since. Manson may have caused the demise of your belief in "our" ability to create a fairer and less brutal world, but you can speak for yourself, just as I have been.

I do speak for myself in this thread I am giving my opinion on your assertion that anybody who remembers or is still affected by the Manson family murders (of which I am one) has somehow been dehumanised.

The fact that you cannot tolerate an opinion that does not concur with your own on the subject is an issue for yourself.