Originally posted by RingtailhunterI didn't jot down the results; I recalled both having quite high match-ups. I think black for sure is an engine because he played quite passive (and repetitive).
What was your match up rates and what makes you think black is an engine?
I'm not sure whether white is one; he made a few moves that decreased his advantage somewhat according to my engine.
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Annotator "Fritz 8 (60s)"]
[PlyCount "100"]
{B54: Sicilian: 2...d6 3 d4 cxd4 4 Nxd4, Unusual Lines} 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Bd7 6. Be3 Nf6 7. f3 e6 8. g4 h6 9. Qd2 a6 10. O-O-O b5 11. h4 b4 12. Nce2 Qa5 13. Kb1 Rc8 14. Rg1 Ne5 15. Nc1 g6 16. g5 hxg5 17. hxg5 Nh5 18. a3 Nc4 19. Bxc4 Rxc4N 20. Na2 Rc8 (20... Qd8) 21. Nxb4 Qa4 (21... Be7) 22. Ka2 (22. Ne2) 22... Qa5 23. Qd3 Ng7 (23... Ra8) 24. c3 e5 25. Nb3 Qb5 26. Nd5 (26. Qxb5) 26... Qxd3 27. Rxd3 Bb5 (27... Be6) 28. Rd2 Rh3 29. Rf2 Bd7 30. Na5 Be6 31. c4 Nh5 32. b3 Bxd5 33. exd5 Ng3 34. Nc6 Kd7 35. b4 Nf5 36. Bd2 Ne7 37. Na5 (37. Nxe7) 37... Nf5 (37... Bg7) 38. Re1 Bg7 39. Nc6 Nd4 (39... Ne7) 40. Nxd4 exd4 41. Kb3 d3 (41... Be5) 42. Re4 Rh1 43. Rf4 (43. Be1) 43... Be5 44. Rxf7+ (44. Rg4) 44... Ke8 45. Rb7 Rb1+ 46. Ka4 Rb2 47. Rh7 Bf4 48. Bxf4 Rxf2 49. Rh8+ Kd7 50. Rh7+ (50. Rxc8+) Ke8 1/2-1/2
White makes 31 non-book moves 25 of which match with my analysis.
Black makes 32 non-book moves 25 of which match with my analysis.
Now, if we look at the non-matching moves white makes later in the game they match with the first impression of the engine but later they are surpassed by better moves (one of them so fast I had to engage explain all moves to see it). This, to me, indicates that perhaps white is an engine but entered time trouble during the game.
The conclusion that white is certainly an engine is not something I'm comfortable making based on this single game as I can't explain certain moves except by attributing them to engine to engine differences.
Black's non-matching moves however are not even on the radar of Fritz. They are never viewed as options and some are clear blunders. This would indicate that either black is a human or an engine with a blunder setting engaged (I would have to look closer at the positions the non-match moves occur in to see if the blunders are human or not).
So no firm conclusions, just possibles.
Here is the event.
[Date "2004.10.09"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Topalov, Veselin"]
[Black "Deep Junior"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B54"]
[WhiteElo "2757"] no#2
[PlyCount "100"]
[EventDate "2004.??.??"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Bd7 6. Be3 Nf6 7. f3 e6 8. g4
h6 9. Qd2 a6 10. O-O-O b5 11. h4 b4 12. Nce2 Qa5 13. Kb1 Rc8 14. Rg1 Ne5 15.
Nc1 g6 16. g5 hxg5 17. hxg5 Nh5 18. a3 Nc4 19. Bxc4 Rxc4 20. Na2 Rc8 21. Nxb4
Qa4 22. Ka2 Qa5 23. Qd3 Ng7 24. c3 e5 25. Nb3 Qb5 26. Nd5 Qxd3 27. Rxd3 Bb5 28.
Rd2 Rh3 29. Rf2 Bd7 30. Na5 Be6 31. c4 Nh5 32. b3 Bxd5 33. exd5 Ng3 34. Nc6 Kd7
35. b4 Nf5 36. Bd2 Ne7 37. Na5 Nf5 38. Re1 Bg7 39. Nc6 Nd4 40. Nxd4 exd4 41.
Kb3 d3 42. Re4 Rh1 43. Rf4 Be5 44. Rxf7+ Ke8 45. Rb7 Rb1+ 46. Ka4 Rb2 47. Rh7
Bf4 48. Bxf4 Rxf2 49. Rh8+ Kd7 50. Rh7+ Ke8 1/2-1/2
Originally posted by RingtailhunterInteresting. I had black making numerous rather bad errors. (moves 20 and 37 are both half a pawn according to Fritz) I can't find any indication that Deep Junior was struggling for time during the game (Chessbase has the game report). An oddity of engine differences perhaps?
Here is the event.
[Date "2004.10.09"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Topalov, Veselin"]
[Black "Deep Junior"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B54"]
[WhiteElo "2757"] no#2
[PlyCount "100"]
[EventDate "2004.??.??"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 Bd7 6. Be3 Nf6 7. f3 e6 8. g4
h6 9. Qd2 a6 10. O-O-O ...[text shortened]... Rxf7+ Ke8 45. Rb7 Rb1+ 46. Ka4 Rb2 47. Rh7
Bf4 48. Bxf4 Rxf2 49. Rh8+ Kd7 50. Rh7+ Ke8 1/2-1/2
Originally posted by XanthosNZI thought the game interesting as well.
Interesting. I had black making numerous rather bad errors. (moves 20 and 37 are both half a pawn according to Fritz) I can't find any indication that Deep Junior was struggling for time during the game (Chessbase has the game report). An oddity of engine differences perhaps?
Originally posted by XanthosNZDoes it perhaps suggest a certain weakness in Junior's makeup?
Interesting. I had black making numerous rather bad errors. (moves 20 and 37 are both half a pawn according to Fritz) I can't find any indication that Deep Junior was struggling for time during the game (Chessbase has the game report). An oddity of engine differences perhaps?
- Joined
- 26 Apr 03
- Moves
- 26771
Originally posted by XanthosNZWell well well, I guess all the red hot cheats will be buying that.
Interesting. I had black making numerous rather bad errors. (moves 20 and 37 are both half a pawn according to Fritz) I can't find any indication that Deep Junior was struggling for time during the game (Chessbase has the game report). An oddity of engine differences perhaps?
Analyzing white with Shredder 9 UCI
Topalov, Veselin (2757) – Deep Junior ½-½
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bd7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.f3 e6 8.g4
h6 9.Qd2 a6 10.O-O-O b5 11.h4 b4 12.Nce2 Qa5 13.Kb1 Rc8 14.Rg1 Ne5
15.Nc1 g6 16.g5 hxg5 17.hxg5 Nh5 18.a3 +0.89/13 4s
[18.f4 +1.48/13 9s Nc4 19.Bxc4 Rxc4 20.Ndb3 Qc7 21.Bd4 Ng7 22.Rge1
a5 23.Qd3 Bb5]
18...Nc4 19.Bxc4 Rxc4 20.Na2 Rc8 21.Nxb4 Qa4 22.Ka2 Qa5 23.Qd3 Ng7
24.c3 e5 25.Nb3 Qb5 26.Nd5 Qxd3 27.Rxd3 Bb5 28.Rd2 Rh3 29.Rf2 Bd7
30.Na5 Be6 31.c4 Nh5 32.b3 Bxd5 33.exd5 Ng3 34.Nc6 Kd7 35.b4 Nf5
36.Bd2 Ne7 37.Na5 Nf5 38.Re1 Bg7 39.Nc6 Nd4 40.Nxd4 exd4 41.Kb3 d3
42.Re4 Rh1 43.Rf4 +0.66/14 0s
[43.Be1 +2.10/14 4s Rg1 44.Rd2 Rxg5 45.Rxd3 f5 46.Re6]
43...Be5 44.Rxf7+ +0.02/18 0s
[44.Rg4 +0.86/18 3s Rb1+ 45.Ka4 Rb2 46.Rfg2 Ra2 47.Be3 Rxg2 48.Rxg2
Rxc4 49.Ka5 Bd4 50.Bxd4 Rxd4 51.Rd2 Kd8]
44...Ke8 45.Rb7 Rb1+ 46.Ka4 Rb2 47.Rh7 Bf4 48.Bxf4 Rxf2 49.Rh8+ Kd7
50.Rh7+ Ke8
Topalov matched shredders choice 94%
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzing black with shredder 9 UCI
Topalov, Veselin (2757) – Deep Junior ½-½
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bd7 -1.09/13 0s
[5...e5 -0.55/13 10s 6.Nf5 Nf6 7.Bc4 Bxf5 8.exf5 Nd4 9.O-O d5 10.Bd3
Bb4 11.Nb5 Nc6 12.c3]
6.Be3 Nf6 7.f3 e6 8.g4 h6 9.Qd2 a6 10.O-O-O b5 11.h4 b4 12.Nce2 Qa5
13.Kb1 Rc8 14.Rg1 Ne5 15.Nc1 g6 16.g5 hxg5 17.hxg5 Nh5 18.a3 Nc4
19.Bxc4 Rxc4 20.Na2 Rc8 21.Nxb4 Qa4 22.Ka2 Qa5 23.Qd3 Ng7 24.c3 e5
25.Nb3 Qb5 26.Nd5 Qxd3 27.Rxd3 Bb5 28.Rd2 Rh3 29.Rf2 Bd7 30.Na5 Be6
31.c4 Nh5 32.b3 Bxd5 33.exd5 Ng3 34.Nc6 Kd7 35.b4 Nf5 36.Bd2 Ne7
37.Na5 Nf5 -1.78/14 0s
[37...Bg7 -1.18/14 9s 38.f4 exf4 39.Rxf4]
38.Re1 Bg7 39.Nc6 Nd4 40.Nxd4 exd4 41.Kb3 d3 42.Re4 Rh1 43.Rf4 Be5
44.Rxf7+ Ke8 45.Rb7 Rb1+ 46.Ka4 Rb2 47.Rh7 Bf4 48.Bxf4 Rxf2 49.Rh8+
Kd7 50.Rh7+ Ke8
Deep Junior matched shredder 96%
[b]You would think that Topolav would be able to remain consistent with these statistics as far as matching
Originally posted by RingtailhunterOf course every person with a brain knows that a high matchup in a single game doesn't mean anything.
Analyzing white with Shredder 9 UCI
Topalov, Veselin (2757) – Deep Junior ½-½
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Bd7 6.Be3 Nf6 7.f3 e6 8.g4
h6 9.Qd2 a6 10.O-O-O b5 11.h4 b4 12.Nce2 Qa5 13.Kb1 Rc8 14.Rg1 Ne5
15.Nc1 g6 16.g5 hxg5 17.hxg5 Nh5 18.a3 +0.89/13 4s
[18.f4 +1.48/13 9s Nc4 19.Bxc4 Rxc4 20.Ndb3 Qc7 21.Bd4 Ng7 22.Rge1
...[text shortened]... d think that Topolav would be able to remain consistent with these statistics as far as matching