07 Nov 10
2 edits
Just looked at this ghastly blunder.
Must say I was expecting something horrible.
After 1. cxd5 Nxd5 2. e4 Nxc3 3. bxc3 Be6
Black is OK. Most would be happy coming out of the opening as Black with this.
You could have had better but this is hardly a ghastly blunder.
Also if White had gone for the trick it can lead to a tricky unbalnced postion.
07 Nov 10
To me black is better developed. It has 3 minor pieces out. Already castled and its queen is ready to go to support future initiatives. White has one problem. Big problem. It has to figure out how it is going to castle. Its KN and KB are still on their original squares since "marching order" has been given to mostly the pawns and the queen.
The main objective of the opening is to get all your minor pieces to strive for the center. Shift the king to the edge of the board via catling. Let those two rooks see each other at the back. For <1800 like us we better do it in fewer than 18 moves. Only after that we can think about developing initiatives.
07 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by EladarI do actually have a point: several, in fact. You have just admitted that you have none, and are simply being pointlessly and idiotically provocative, gratuitously. That is the definition of trolling, and of harassment.
Dude, you'd argue with a stone wall wouldn't you?
You see, I'm just replying because I have nothing better to do. You are replying because you actually think you have a point. This is internet board posting that has not point. If you don't want to go around in multiple posts getting nothing accomplished, then don't answer the posts you disagree with. ( ply, I'll let you have the last word.
Anyone want to give this lad a bit of advice?
I'm not surprised that you don't like my correcting you and shooting down all of your little tricks. You want to tell lies and get away with it, and I'm not only preventing you from doing this, but exposing you and making you look foolish.
This forum is called "Only Chess". It is for serious posts about chess, like mine, that have a point, like mine. It is not for your verbal diarrhea. If you have no point to make, then do NOT comment, in this or in any other thread in this forum.
I am not going to put up with harassment from you, and I am going to complain to the administrators if you persist in it. You are a defective individual whose sole purpose is to disrupt and irritate, idiotically.
I am not "getting nothing accomplished" in replying to you. I am discouraging defective troublemakers like you, and discouraging you specifically.
Since I "have the last word" you will now absorb this information in silence.
07 Nov 10
Originally posted by BahariI don't understand this remark, since *I* was playing Black.
To me black is better developed. It has 3 minor pieces out. Already castled and its queen is ready to go to support future initiatives. White has one problem. Big problem. It has to figure out how it is going to castle. Its KN and KB are still on their original squares since "marching order" has been given to mostly the pawns and the queen.
The main objec ...[text shortened]... etter do it in fewer than 18 moves. Only after that we can think about developing initiatives.
07 Nov 10
Blah, blah, blah blah.
I'd suggest you go read Greenpawn's reply in my knowledge or logic thread. He disagrees with you. You have been out superiored.
You better than me, but Greepawn's better than you. Now my inferior point of view is superior! Now you need to find a superior chess player to greenpawn to validate your point of view.
Blah, blah.
07 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by greenpawn34Thanks very much for the feedback, greenpawn34.
Just looked at this ghastly blunder.
Must say I was expecting something horrible.
[fen]r2q1rk1/ppp2ppp/2n2n2/3ppb2/2P5/P1BPP3/1PQ2PPP/R3KBNR w KQ - 0 1[/fen]
After 1. cxd5 Nxd5 2. e4 Nxc3 3. bxc3 Be6
[fen]r2q1rk1/ppp2ppp/2n1b3/4p3/4P3/P1PP4/2Q2PPP/R3KBNR w KQ - 0 4[/fen]
Black is OK. Most would be happy coming out of the opening as Black wit . This looks like fun. It may not stand up to severe inspection but it looks playable.} [/pgn]
With respect to the first position, you wrote: "After 1. cxd5 Nxd5 2. e4 Nxc3 3. bxc3 Be6, Black is OK. Most would be happy coming out of the opening as Black with this."
They wouldn't (or shouldn't) be happy giving away a carefully built and much better opening by overlooking a simple tactic.
But with respect to your alternative scenario, ...Qxd5, I think you may be right. Mind you, I'm not in the best state of mind at the moment to evaluate this, having had almost nothing to eat for two days now, gone without my morning caffeine, and gone without my daily dose of medicine (which has an ameliorative effect on a quasi-alzheimer's mental dysfunction); but that said, it seems to me that you've made a good case for a playable and interesting alternative. Even after White plays 4.Rd1 in your second scenario, 4...Nd4 looks strong: once that e-file is opened, White just doesn't have time to do anything. And that, after all, was what I was shooting at as Black: to use my lead in development, White's lack of kingside development (and decimated queenside), and his uncastled king, to mount a kind of attack before the moment passed. So, hat's off to you.
I didn't look closely enough at the ...Qxd5 recapture: once I saw that queen/bishop fork I dismissed it. I'm afraid I wasn't thinking too clearly even at that point, being depressed over money problems.
07 Nov 10
Originally posted by EladarI've been reading greenpawn34's comment. Good stuff. And no, he doesn't disagree with me. (Where?)
Blah, blah, blah blah.
I'd suggest you go read Greenpawn's reply in my knowledge or logic thread. He disagrees with you. You have been out superiored.
You better than me, but Greepawn's better than you. Now my inferior point of view is superior! Now you need to find a superior chess player to greenpawn to validate your point of view.
Blah, blah.
07 Nov 10
Hi guys - please don't bring me into your minor squabble.
I have enough on my plate without wondering what joke post has backfired.
Hi Schach
My comment
" Most would be happy coming out of the opening as Black with this."
Meant OK. You have made a minor slip but don't dwell on it.
Pick yourself up and play the cards the you have dealt yourself.
You are human so mistake will will happen.
How you react after a mistake is very important.
The key factor is admitting to yourself you have made a blunder, seeing how
bad the damage is. Then you dust yourself and start again.
In the game in question you played 8...Bf4!?
Most likely because you just saw your pawn winning threat of 9....dxc4
and relaxed because your position was so good.
After 1. cxd5 Nxd5 2. e4 Nxc3 3. bxc3 Be6. the game looks equal.
Your position could stand a slack move. You are still OK.
Be happy.
(also be very very careful because chess history dictates that blunders,
no matter how small, often come in two's.)
07 Nov 10
Originally posted by EladarNo you don't -- and he didn't.
I believe he called it a game of knowledge.
If you have the intelligence of a stone wall, as you yourself suggested earlier, then you should act like one. Be still and quiet. I can't imagine anything more pernicious than a stone wall that can speak but has no judgment, and has seemingly been programmed to bad-taste, contrarianism, and irrational hostility, and runs around causing trouble...unless it be a world full of such walls.
By the way, what happened to my final word? Or were you just hoping you could posture as magnanimous while actually getting it yourself?
07 Nov 10
I had to go back and see what I said.
"Chess is a game of knowledge and experience.
The more you play the better you become."
Please allow me to re-post.
Chess is a game of knowledge and experience.
The more you play the better you become. That's only logical."
Is everyone happy now? I agree with both you.
07 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by greenpawn34I agree, the reaction is key. In this case, it's rational to hold myself to standards appropriate to my rating and experience, not to mention a failure in the application of my method: I should not have overlooked such a simple tactic. The fact that the blunder would "merely" have taken me from a superior position to a roughly equal one, doesn't change that. Those who are lackadaisical about such errors are likely to repeat them, not guard against them with renewed vigilance.
Hi guys - please don't bring me into your minor squabble.
I have enough on my plate without wondering what joke post has backfired.
Hi Schach
My comment
" Most would be happy coming out of the opening as Black with this."
Meant OK. You have made a minor slip but don't dwell on it.
Pick yourself up and play the cards the you have dealt yo ...[text shortened]... l because chess history dictates that blunders,
no matter how small, often come in two's.)
As for why I played 8...Bf5 (I'll omit the ?? due to the interesting alternative line you suggested) my notes (made while playing) are rather long, but here are some excerpts:
Another idea is 8...Bf5 which develops another back rank piece, and simultaneously prevents both 9.d4 and 4.e4. (This raises the question of what would have happened if White had played 8.e4. He may have been reluctant to open up the center with his king uncastled, though I'm not convinced that this was unplayable after 8...dxe4 9.o-o-o (not 9.dxe4?).
. . .
I really don't think that I want to play a move that allows 9.e4; at that point Black can choose from 9...dxe4 10.Rd1; or 9...d4 10.Bd2 closing the center; or 9...dxc4 when the c4 pawn is covered by the king's bishop and the f5 square is off limits, and Rd1 looms again. Leaving the pawn where it is isn't an option because of 10.cxd5 winning a pawn, driving the c6 knight to a bad square (or one where it can be immediately captured and the exchange serves no purpose for Black), and cramps Black's center and queenside; not to mention the possibility of d4 (after Nf3) undoubling White's pawns and giving White a full pawn center -- quite a turn-around.
After 8...Bf5 9.Qb3 Rb8 White is still not able to play 10.d4 for reasons detailed above (i.e., without losing a pawn at minimum and/or opening up the e-file). 10.Rd1 and Black cannot move the queen off the d-file without losing the pawn on d5 since the knight on f6 cannot recapture due to the White queen's support from b3; on 10...dxc4 11.dxc4 Qe7 12.Bd3 White is actually gaining ground. On 9...b5 10.cxd5 Rb8 11.Qa4 Black has lost a pawn and has no immediate prospect of regaining it, and the knight is evicted from c6. On 8...Qe7 9.e4 dxe4 10.dxe4 Rd8 11.Rd1 Be6 12.Bd3 White will follow with Nf3 and o-o.
But perhaps it is not necessary to defend the b7 pawn? That loss of tempo is where Black's troubles start. 8...Bf5 9.Qb3 d4 and now:
(a) 10.Qxb7?? and now 10...dxc3 11.Qxc6 cxb2 12.Rb1 Rb8 and White is low on playable options: on 13.Nf3 Bxd3 14.Bxd3 Qxd3 White still cannot castle and the only method of saving the hanging rook is 15.Nd2; and here Black should be wary of 15...Ne4 since the knight on f6 is keeping the White queen out of d5; 15...Rfd8 is the game winning move here.
(b) 10.Bd2 e4!? (to prevent White playing e4) and on 11.dxe4 Nxe4 12.Bc1(?) Nc5! (attacking the queen and defending the b7 pawn since the b2 pawn is now defended by the bishop on c1) 13.Qd1 and White is surely treading on thin ice. Black might consider 13...Qf6 to prevent 15.exd4 and to clear both the d8 and e8 squares for rooks.
If instead on 10...e4!? 11.Qxb7 Qd7 12.dxe4 (12.Rb1 exd3) we have a similar situation.
(c) 10.e4 dxc3 11.Rd1 Qe7 (11.Qxb7?? Qd2# ) 12.Qxc3 Nxe4 wins a pawn (13.Qxb7 c2 14.Rc1 Nd4 (since the knight is hanging and this also protects the c2 pawn) and on 15.Bd3 Rfb8 16.Qa6 Rxb2 17.Ne2 Rb1 and on 18.Bxc2 Nxc2+ 19.Kd2 Rxc1 20.Rxc1 Nxa3 wins the bishop and gets the pawn back, with ...Nxd4 soon to follow and the White king exposed on the open d-file.
In fact, because Qxb7 allows ...Rxb2 infilatrating rooks to White's second rank (another possibility which has yet to be properly considered) it is possible that White may not even play 9.Qb3; what else might he play and what else does he have?
On 8...Bf5 9. Be2 what should Black's continuation be? Black has to remember that his knight on f6 can be taken after ...e4 with Bxf6 and at the moment the only recapture possible is ...gxf6; 9...Qe2 to discourage 10.Nh3; 10.Nf3 and 10...e4 is met with 11.Bxf6 gxf6; should Black be concerned about this recapture or look at it as an opportunity to get rooks on the g-file? 10...d4 (the knight and bishop are attacking the singly protected e5-pawn) 11.Bd2 dxe3 12.Bxe3 e4 and now on 13.dxe4 Bxe4 and if 14.Rd1 Qg4! threatening ...Qxg2 and attacking the rook, while the White queen remains under attack also.
This, however, is only one speculative line and Black has not begun to look at alternatives. Going back to my original reasoning, I don't want to see White play e4 (just because he didn't see it last move doesn't mean he won't play it this move) and the move also prevents White from playing an immediate d4.
* * *
All of which doesn't even begin to address White's most obvious response, 9.cxd5 and the simple fork it allows: this is why I called the oversight a ghastly blunder, and why I'm not far off the mark in doing so, since I can't say that I saw your alternative line, never even having considered the initial problem. The fact that I had spent a lot of time looking at other lines doesn't excuse failure to complete my analysis, instead of playing Hope Chess and rushing in. (Again, I was also depressed over money worries at the time.)
07 Nov 10
1 edit
Originally posted by greenpawn34No, you only agree with me, since Eladar took an absurd position claiming that it was either one OR the other! OF COURSE it's both, which is why Eladar is an idiotic troll.
I had to go back and see what I said.
"Chess is a game of knowledge and experience.
The more you play the better you become."
Please allow me to re-post.
Chess is a game of knowledge and experience.
The more you play the better you become. That's only logical."
Is everyone happy now? I agree with both you.
Incidentally, I haven't brought you into this (Eladar's pettifoggery and provocations) at all. Blame the squirt.