26 Sep 11
Originally posted by tomtom232I think white should be able to hold with the above lines.
...b5 cxb5 ...Bb7 f3 ...Re2 and white is in serious trouble.
1 ...Nc2
2 Bxc2 ...Rxd2
3 Ba4 ...b5?
4 cxb5 ...Bb7
5 bxa6 ... ?
...Bd5
6 Bd1 (not Bb3 ...Rxb2) ... Rd3(...Rxd1? 7 Rxd1 ... Bf3( ...Qf3? 8 Rxd5 ...Qxd5 9 Qb7) a7)
7 a7
or
... Bxa6
6 Bxd2 ...Bxf1
8 Rxf1 extra piece
or simply
...Rxa6
7 Qxb7
The main problem for black after ...b5 seems to be whites a7 later on.
26 Sep 11
4 edits
Originally posted by dzhafner
I think white should be able to hold with the above lines.
1 ...Nc2
2 Bxc2 ...Rxd2
3 Ba4 ...b5?
4 cxb5 ...Bb7
5 bxa6 ... ?
...Bd5
6 Bd1 (not Bb3 ...Rxb2) ... Rd3(...Rxd1? 7 Rxd1 ... Bf3( ...Qf3? 8 Rxd5 ...Qxd5 9 Qb7) a7)
7 a7
or
... Bxa6
6 Bxd2 ...Bxf1
8 Rxf1 extra piece
or simply
...Rxa6
7 Qxb7
[pgn][FEN "r2r2k1/1p3pbp/p1b d1 Rd3 7. a7 *[/pgn]
The main problem for black after ...b5 seems to be whites a7 later on.
26 Sep 11
16 edits
Originally posted by dzhafner
I think white should be able to hold with the above lines.
1 ...Nc2
2 Bxc2 ...Rxd2
3 Ba4 ...b5?
4 cxb5 ...Bb7
5 bxa6 ... ?
...Bd5
6 Bd1 (not Bb3 ...Rxb2) ... Rd3(...Rxd1? 7 Rxd1 ... Bf3( ...Qf3? 8 Rxd5 ...Qxd5 9 Qb7) a7)
7 a7
or
... Bxa6
6 Bxd2 ...Bxf1
8 Rxf1 extra piece
or simply
...Rxa6
7 Qxb7
[pgn][FEN "r2r2k1/1p3pbp/p1b d1 Rd3 7. a7 *[/pgn]
The main problem for black after ...b5 seems to be whites a7 later on.
And I can continue finding things for you to refute... the point is I know that black is winning after 1...Nc2 not because of concrete variations but that there are so much coordination and attainable patterns that there has to be something for black.
26 Sep 11
Originally posted by dzhafnerIn the position after black plays Bd5,
I think white should be able to hold with the above lines.
1 ...Nc2
2 Bxc2 ...Rxd2
3 Ba4 ...b5?
4 cxb5 ...Bb7
5 bxa6 ... ?
...Bd5
6 Bd1 (not Bb3 ...Rxb2) ... Rd3(...Rxd1? 7 Rxd1 ... Bf3( ...Qf3? 8 Rxd5 ...Qxd5 9 Qb7) a7)
7 a7
or
... Bxa6
6 Bxd2 ...Bxf1
8 Rxf1 extra piece
or simply
...Rxa6
7 Qxb7
[pgn][FEN "r2r2k1/1p3pbp/p1b ...[text shortened]... d1 Rd3 7. a7 *[/pgn]
The main problem for black after ...b5 seems to be whites a7 later on.
Qd2!? Qf3
Qd5 Qd5
a7
may also be worth a look for white:
rook, bishop, 2 pawns for the queen and a pawn is a monster
(blacks counter play with e4, and q and b hitting h2 needs to come quickly as Rc1 and Bc6 is coming)
26 Sep 11
Originally posted by queenabberIn the end ...Nc2 is definitely a Tal like move lol
In the position after black plays Bd5,
Qd2!? Qf3
Qd5 Qd5
a7
may also be worth a look for white:
rook, bishop, 2 pawns for the queen and a pawn is a monster
(blacks counter play with e4, and q and b hitting h2 needs to come quickly as Rc1 and Bc6 is coming)
27 Sep 11
3 edits
In the first diagram, f3 walks into a perpetual but Qe4 is winning.
[b]
I think white is doing better in the ...a5 line than in the ...Nc2 line.
He picks up whites g and h pawns for free.
Defending accurately does require great tactical vision, but it is possible.
For example.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1069975
27 Sep 11
Originally posted by dzhafner]
In the first diagram, f3 walks into a perpetual but Qe4 is winning.
[b][pgn][FEN "r2r2k1/1p3pbp/p1b2qp1/4p3/1QPnB1P1/P3B2P/1P1N1P2/1R3RK1 b - - 0 1"]
1... Nc2 2. Bxc2 Rxd2 3. Ba4 {doesn't defend the whole diagonal... this is key} b5 4.cxb5 axb5 5. Bxb5 Bf3 6.Bxd2 Qh4 7.Be2 Bxe2 8.Qe4[/pgn]
I think white is doing better in the ...a5 line than in the ...[text shortened]... on, but it is possible.
For example.
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1069975
Find the refutation... like I said I'm not even looking hard but moves for black keep coming up. Maybe somebody with a strong engine can settle the debate but I think that black should be on top.